Cellular phones topics - Logo on Ericsson W800i

Author

Logo on Ericsson W800i

Secret Squirrel

2005-11-04, 11:48 pm

Hello.

I have a problem and was hoping that someone here might be able to suggest a
solution. I have just purchased a new W800i and it has a Telco company logo
where the right hand menu option/shortcut is on the screen - the one that
normally says menu or info etc. If you select it, it takes you into a web
browser and connects to the phone company's web site.

How do I get the normal "menu/info" options back on the main screen? I have
searched through all of the set-up data but can find nothing other than the
shortcut options for the toggle. I don't use the web with the phone and
object to them placing their logo permanently on my phone. If I can't find a
way to get rid of it I am returning the phone.

Thanx

Secret Squirrel

John Henderson

2005-11-04, 11:48 pm

Secret Squirrel wrote:

> I have a problem and was hoping that someone here might be
> able to suggest a solution. I have just purchased a new W800i
> and it has a Telco company logo where the right hand menu
> option/shortcut is on the screen - the one that normally says
> menu or info etc. If you select it, it takes you into a web
> browser and connects to the phone company's web site.
>
>
> How do I get the normal "menu/info" options back on the main
> screen? I have searched through all of the set-up data but can
> find nothing other than the shortcut options for the toggle. I
> don't use the web with the phone and object to them placing
> their logo permanently on my phone. If I can't find a way to
> get rid of it I am returning the phone.

It's probably done using SIM Application Toolkit (STK). If so,
there's nothing you can do about it short of getting a SIM
without that application programmed in. To check, try someone
else's SIM (on a different network). If the unwanted
"functionality" disappears with another SIM, it's an STK
application.

John

Taylor

2005-11-05, 5:48 pm

"John Henderson" < jhenRemoveThis@talk2
1.com> wrote in message
news:3t27d7Fqq1guU1@
individual.net...
> Secret Squirrel wrote:
>
>
> It's probably done using SIM Application Toolkit (STK). If so,
> there's nothing you can do about it short of getting a SIM
> without that application programmed in. To check, try someone
> else's SIM (on a different network). If the unwanted
> "functionality" disappears with another SIM, it's an STK
> application.

It's surely more likely to be firmware customisation?! In which case, the
answer is yes :-) You can 'unbrand' your handset using da vinci
http://www.davinciteam.com - and use your w800 usb cable (or another cable)
to unbrand it.

John Henderson

2005-11-05, 5:48 pm

Taylor wrote:

> It's surely more likely to be firmware customisation?! In
> which case, the answer is yes :-) You can 'unbrand' your
> handset using da vinci http://www.davinciteam.com - and use
> your w800 usb cable (or another cable) to unbrand it.

Could be firmware, but it's been done with STK in the few cases
I've seen.

John

pete devlin

2005-11-06, 5:48 pm

In message < 3t4h1iFr2343U1@indiv
idual.net>, John Henderson
< jhenRemoveThis@talk2
1.com> writes
>Could be firmware, but it's been done with STK in the few cases I've
>seen.

You don't really know do you? It _IS_ a firmware function and can only
be removed by debranding.
--
Pete Devlin
[{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
"And the devil in a black dress watches over"

John Henderson

2005-11-06, 5:48 pm

pete devlin wrote:

> You don't really know do you?

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

> It _IS_ a firmware function and can only be removed by
> debranding.

You're very confident. But as I said, extra logos, key
assignments and menu items can be implemented using SIM
Application Toolkit, and that's the way I've seen it done by
some telcos. And I've done enough STK programming myself to be
sure about the capabilities.

Please have a good look at GSM 11.14 for the technical details.

John

pete devlin

2005-11-06, 11:48 pm

In message < 3t729lFr14i4U1@indiv
idual.net>, John Henderson
< jhenRemoveThis@talk2
1.com> writes
>pete devlin wrote:
>
>
>Yes, that's exactly what I said.

Then why make a complete guess at the rest?

>
>
>You're very confident. But as I said, extra logos, key
>assignments and menu items can be implemented using SIM
>Application Toolkit, and that's the way I've seen it done by
>some telcos. And I've done enough STK programming myself to be
>sure about the capabilities.

Someone has already told you how it is done. If you do actually know
different now would be a good time to prove it. Thinking out loud over
usenet is pointless and potentially embarressing.

>
>Please have a good look at GSM 11.14 for the technical details.
>
Why? I know how to do it. I have a phone in my hand with exactly the
result that the OP asked for. It is one of many that I have debranded.
It is nothing top do with GSM, it is a firmware function. Can we stop
wasting bandwidth over a trivial point now?
--
Pete Devlin
[{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
"And the devil in a black dress watches over"

John Henderson

2005-11-06, 11:48 pm

pete devlin wrote:

> Then why make a complete guess at the rest?

My sincerest apologies, but the OP asked a question, which I
jumped in and answered to the best of my ability.

> Someone has already told you how it is done.

They've pointed out that it _can_ be done in firmware, and I'd
be silly to dispute something so obvious. But have not I
personally seen that sort of thing done with firmware. Now it
may well be that's because I buy phones outright, unlocked,
without SIMs, and without any tethering to a particular
carrier. Perhaps it's also because we operate in different
world markets.

> If you do actually know different now would be a good time to
> prove it.

Prove what? Under discussion is exactly the sort of task STK
was put into the GSM standards for. My proof of the
alternative mechanism is my reference to GSM 11.14, QED.

> Thinking out loud over usenet is pointless and potentially
> embarressing.

I'm not even a little bit embarrassed.

> Why? I know how to do it. I have a phone in my hand with
> exactly the result that the OP asked for. It is one of many
> that I have debranded.

I'm not denying that, and I'm happy to take your word for your
"debranding" activities.

> It is nothing top do with GSM, it is a firmware function.

In many cases, apparently yes. But what about the telco selling
SIMs, and controlling aspects of the display and menus on
_whatever_ phone it's put into? They do achieve that you know,
and without write access to phone firmware. And you could
unsuccessfully try to "debrand" one of these phones until the
cows come home.

> Can we stop wasting bandwidth over a trivial point now?

I'm not the one who escalated this debate. To the extent that
it's trivial, you'll hear no more from me. What I hotly
contest however is the claim that any phone with visible
telco-specific functionality must be running "branded"
firmware.

John

Secret Squirrel

2005-11-07, 5:48 pm

On 7/11/05 12:27 PM, in article 3t7sbpFqs5vqU1@indiv
idual.net, "John
Henderson" < jhenRemoveThis@talk2
1.com> wrote:

> pete devlin wrote:
>
>
> My sincerest apologies, but the OP asked a question, which I
> jumped in and answered to the best of my ability.
>
>
> They've pointed out that it _can_ be done in firmware, and I'd
> be silly to dispute something so obvious. But have not I
> personally seen that sort of thing done with firmware. Now it
> may well be that's because I buy phones outright, unlocked,
> without SIMs, and without any tethering to a particular
> carrier. Perhaps it's also because we operate in different
> world markets.
>
>
> Prove what? Under discussion is exactly the sort of task STK
> was put into the GSM standards for. My proof of the
> alternative mechanism is my reference to GSM 11.14, QED.
>
>
> I'm not even a little bit embarrassed.
>
>
> I'm not denying that, and I'm happy to take your word for your
> "debranding" activities.
>
>
> In many cases, apparently yes. But what about the telco selling
> SIMs, and controlling aspects of the display and menus on
> _whatever_ phone it's put into? They do achieve that you know,
> and without write access to phone firmware. And you could
> unsuccessfully try to "debrand" one of these phones until the
> cows come home.
>
>
> I'm not the one who escalated this debate. To the extent that
> it's trivial, you'll hear no more from me. What I hotly
> contest however is the claim that any phone with visible
> telco-specific functionality must be running "branded"
> firmware.
>
> John

No, it isn't anything to do with the sim card, it is in the new phone. It is
irritating on two counts, one I don't really want to see the telco's logo
every time I look at the phone, and two, they have pre empted a useful
shortcut, the one that brings up the main menu and replaced it with a logo
that logs onto the company's web site. I can use the menu button without
looking at the phone i.e., while driving, but cannot reliably use the
joystick to obtain the same result. The slightest directional movement on
the joystick will put it into another menu area.

I used to be able to navigate to any menu function with key presses, now, by
being forced to use the joystick, I have to be watching the screen to do the
same thing. It distracts while driving, not a good thing to do.

I have discovered software that will remove it it but it only runs on a
Windows platform - I am Mac based. I am returning the phone and going with
another telco. I have instructed my credit card company to reverse the
transaction and they have agreed to do so.

Thanx

Secret Squirrel

John Henderson

2005-11-07, 5:48 pm

Secret Squirrel wrote:

> No, it isn't anything to do with the sim card, it is in the
> new phone. It is irritating on two counts, one I don't really
> want to see the telco's logo every time I look at the phone,
> and two, they have pre empted a useful shortcut, the one that
> brings up the main menu and replaced it with a logo that logs
> onto the company's web site. I can use the menu button without
> looking at the phone i.e., while driving, but cannot reliably
> use the joystick to obtain the same result. The slightest
> directional movement on the joystick will put it into another
> menu area.
>
> I used to be able to navigate to any menu function with key
> presses, now, by being forced to use the joystick, I have to
> be watching the screen to do the same thing. It distracts
> while driving, not a good thing to do.
>
> I have discovered software that will remove it it but it only
> runs on a Windows platform - I am Mac based. I am returning
> the phone and going with another telco. I have instructed my
> credit card company to reverse the transaction and they have
> agreed to do so.

Hopefully it all works out for you. Some of us learned
something in the process, and that's always a good thing.

It's irrelevant to your situation now, but for the record 2 of
my 5 active SIMs behave in a similiar manner when put into a
pristine STK-capable handset. The others don't.

cheers,

John

J. David Anderson

2005-11-10, 5:48 pm

pete devlin wrote:
> In message < 3t729lFr14i4U1@indiv
idual.net>, John Henderson
> < jhenRemoveThis@talk2
1.com> writes
>
>
>
> Then why make a complete guess at the rest?
>
>
>
> Someone has already told you how it is done. If you do actually know
> different now would be a good time to prove it. Thinking out loud over
> usenet is pointless and potentially embarressing.
>
> Why? I know how to do it. I have a phone in my hand with exactly the
> result that the OP asked for. It is one of many that I have debranded.
> It is nothing top do with GSM, it is a firmware function. Can we stop
> wasting bandwidth over a trivial point now?

How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or type of
cellphone, interact with the various operating systems and hardware that
it could potentially encounter and still replace a specific function on
a specific phone? I would be more inclined to agree that it would be in
the phone's firmware.

Curious though, as I also have a W800 although mine is not "branded" in
any manner. What I find intriguing is the possibility of reassigning a
dedicated function key to another single keypress function, say
switching Bluetooth on and off.

Have you done this?

Regards

David

--

To email me, please include the letters DNF anywhere in the subject line.

All other mail is automatically deleted.

pete devlin

2005-11-10, 5:48 pm

In message <2NKcf.133$mM1.3478@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>, J. David Anderson
< jdavidanderson_@hotm
ail.?.invalid> writes
>How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or type of
>cellphone, interact with the various operating systems and hardware
>that it could potentially encounter and still replace a specific
>function on a specific phone? I would be more inclined to agree that it
>would be in the phone's firmware.

Of course it is.

>
>Curious though, as I also have a W800 although mine is not "branded" in
>any manner. What I find intriguing is the possibility of reassigning a
>dedicated function key to another single keypress function, say
>switching Bluetooth on and off.
>
>Have you done this?

No. It would involve modifying firmware and loading it. I just know how
to replace one with another. Way beyond me. The shortcuts function gets
you there in 2 clicks - that's almost there!
--
Pete Devlin
[{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
"And the devil in a black dress watches over"

John Henderson

2005-11-10, 5:48 pm

John Henderson

2005-11-10, 5:48 pm

J. David Anderson wrote:

> How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or
> type of cellphone, interact with the various operating systems
> and hardware that it could potentially encounter and still
> replace a specific function on a specific phone?

To answer more generally and completely than my earlier specific
reply, it's done by compliance with standards and associated
specifications. GSM 11.14 requires that compliant handsets can
be (in part) driven by the SIM using an array of "proactive SIM
commands". Other commands allow the SIM to process and react
to those interactive commands.

Most GSM phones these days (Ericsson W800i included) are
compliant.

Some phones (notably Siemens) even allow STK commands to be run
from the serial port as an alternative, as if they were being
run directly from the SIM. Using STK proactive commands, I've
written netmonitoring software which shows many interesting
things not otherwise accessible, like distance to the current
serving cell (by reading Timing Advance), and the list of
neighbouring cells (with signal strengths) at any given time.

SIM Application Toolkit is very powerful - don't underestimate
it.

John

pete devlin

2005-11-10, 5:48 pm

In message < 3thkhmFt48k5U1@indiv
idual.net>, John Henderson
< jhenRemoveThis@talk2
1.com> writes
>J. David Anderson wrote:
>
>
>As you ask, by the SIM running an STK application and issuing
>the "GET INKEY" proactive SIM command to the phone (ME), of
>course. To quote GSM 11.14:
>
>"This command instructs the ME to display text and/or an icon
>(see 6.5.4) and to expect the user to enter a single character.
>Any response entered by the user shall be passed transparently
>by the ME to the SIM."
>
>It's just an ordinary STK tag-length-value (TLV) command, which
>will run on any STK-capable phone with a suitable STK profile
>when such a SIM is used.
>
A little knowledge is dangerous. The SIM in question would not be
running any applications. Do SIMs run applications? How do they know how
to? Is it when the user presses a button? What logo and purpose would
such a button have? Where would that be stored then?
--
Pete Devlin
[{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
"And the devil in a black dress watches over"

John Navas

2005-11-10, 5:48 pm

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.gsm - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In < kk6YJACv56cDFwRy@suk
mabobby.com> on Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:32:47 +0000, pete
devlin <spamtrap@secondrow.co.uk> wrote:

>In message < 3thkhmFt48k5U1@indiv
idual.net>, John Henderson
>< jhenRemoveThis@talk2
1.com> writes
>A little knowledge is dangerous.

It is indeed.

>The SIM in question would not be
>running any applications.

It doesn't have to.

>Do SIMs run applications?

They can.

>How do they know how
>to? Is it when the user presses a button? What logo and purpose would
>such a button have? Where would that be stored then?

Way beyond the scope of this response. See SIM standards at ETSI.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

John Henderson

2005-11-10, 11:48 pm

John Navas wrote:

> Way beyond the scope of this response. See SIM standards at
> ETSI.

Yes, there are some very good questions there from Pete. And
I'll be the first to say "I don't know" to some of them.

When running from the SIM, STK apps necessarily get tied up with
SIM security, some aspects of which is _not_ in the public
domain. And I personally don't have any SIM programming tools
as such with which to experiment.

As I said in another post, I have written a specific STK
application, but using the serial port and a very useful "back
door" provided by Siemens. So I'm up to speed on basic TLV
command syntax, but not how the whole thing gets embedded and
locked into the SIM.

John

Dan Altemyr

2005-11-11, 5:48 pm

"J. David Anderson" < jdavidanderson_@hotm
ail> wrote in message
news:2NKcf.133$mM1.3478@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
| How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or type of
| cellphone, interact with the various operating systems and hardware that
| it could potentially encounter and still replace a specific function on
| a specific phone? I would be more inclined to agree that it would be in
| the phone's firmware.
|
Actually, the SIM can change the behaviour of a phone. Sort of, anyway. The
firmware in the phone must support such modifications though.
I once tried a vodafone SIM in my totally unbranded phone many years ago,
and suddenly, a new "Vodafone" menu appeared in the menu tree. It
disappeared when I restored my own SIM from another operator. I suppose
there is a "Customisable" menu item hidden in the menus by the firmware,
which is up to the SIM card to populate. In newer phones with graphical
displays, this functionality may very well have been improved to include new
images and graphics, as the memory size on the SIM has increased too.

--
/Danne
____________________
____________________
__
d a n (dot) a l t e m y r (at) t e l i a (dot) c o m

John Henderson

2005-11-11, 5:48 pm

Dan Altemyr wrote:

> Actually, the SIM can change the behaviour of a phone. Sort
> of, anyway. The firmware in the phone must support such
> modifications though. I once tried a vodafone SIM in my
> totally unbranded phone many years ago, and suddenly, a new
> "Vodafone" menu appeared in the menu tree. It disappeared when
> I restored my own SIM from another operator. I suppose there
> is a "Customisable" menu item hidden in the menus by the
> firmware, which is up to the SIM card to populate.

It's not that simple. There's no vacant menu items in firmware
just waiting to have values plugged in. To quote again from
GSM 11.14:

"A set of possible menu entries is supplied by the SIM in a
proactive SIM command. The menu selection mechanism is used to
transfer the SIM application menu item which has been selected
by the user to the SIM. The menu selection mechanism may also
be used for requesting help information on the items of the SIM
application menu."

> In newer phones with graphical displays, this functionality
> may very well have been improved to include new images and
> graphics, as the memory size on the SIM has increased too.

And a more general quote (trimmed by me) on capabilities:

"Proactive SIM gives a mechanism whereby the SIM can initiate
actions to be taken by the ME. These actions include:
- displaying text from the SIM to the ME;
- sending a short message;
- setting up a voice call to a number held by the SIM;
- setting up a data call to a number and bearer capabilities
held by the SIM;
- sending a SS control or USSD string;
- playing tone in earpiece;
- initiating a dialogue with the user;
- providing local information from the ME to the SIM;
- managing timers running physically in the ME;
- sending DTMF;
- requesting the ME to launch the browser corresponding to a
URL. (if class "c" is supported)"

Enough said?

John

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