Bluetooth discussion - AUTO SATNAV and "BLACK BOXES"

Author

AUTO SATNAV and "BLACK BOXES"

Silvabod

2006-10-12, 7:33 am

In UK - recent news reports of sophisticated criminals stealing in-car
SatNav systems, using BlueTooth detectors to ID cars fitted with them, even
if hidden out of sight.

Simultaneously - Norwich Union are offering "pay as you drive" insurance,
based on "black boxes" using SatNav technology to record/broadcast actual
miles and roads, via a "black box" installation in the vehicle. (A side
benefit is that, if reported stolen, Norwich Union can locate the vehicle
....)

QUESTION - Can these blue-tooth detectors differentiate between SatNav
installations and the Insurance co's "black box, or will this lead to a
spate of car break-ins, i.e crims seeking a non-existent SatNav in-car
system?

I assume that detectors work because SatNav systems are on stand-by when the
ignition is switched off (thus, detectable via radio signal) - do they HAVE
to be permanently on standby? Why not power off completely, = no signal, no
detectability? (I don't have one, am considering the insurance option, but
don't want the hassle of car break-in).

PeteS

2006-10-13, 10:33 am

Silvabod wrote:
> In UK - recent news reports of sophisticated criminals stealing in-car
> SatNav systems, using BlueTooth detectors to ID cars fitted with them, even
> if hidden out of sight.
>
> Simultaneously - Norwich Union are offering "pay as you drive" insurance,
> based on "black boxes" using SatNav technology to record/broadcast actual
> miles and roads, via a "black box" installation in the vehicle. (A side
> benefit is that, if reported stolen, Norwich Union can locate the vehicle
> ...)
>
> QUESTION - Can these blue-tooth detectors differentiate between SatNav
> installations and the Insurance co's "black box, or will this lead to a
> spate of car break-ins, i.e crims seeking a non-existent SatNav in-car
> system?
>
> I assume that detectors work because SatNav systems are on stand-by when the
> ignition is switched off (thus, detectable via radio signal) - do they HAVE
> to be permanently on standby? Why not power off completely, = no signal, no
> detectability? (I don't have one, am considering the insurance option, but
> don't want the hassle of car break-in).

You are comparing two different systems. Bluetooth detectors work with
SatNav because they have Bluetooth to do playback across hands free
kits. Because the hands free kits may operate for a while (sometimes
permanently) with the ignition off the BT signal is detectable.

Why the Bluetooth is detectable depends on the hands free kit - many of
them do not turn off immedaitely after ignition off, (a phone call may
be in progress, for example) and some remain enabled while a valid
bluetooth device is connected. That comes under the heading of 'systems
design' and there could be good reasons they are set that way, and may
even be configurable.

The Norwich union unit is somewhat different. To the best of my
knowledge it is not a satnav solution but a tracking unit (I design
both types of unit, and there is a major difference) which would be
unlikely to have a bluetooth system embedded.

Cheers

PeteS

Silvabod

2006-10-19, 7:33 am

Thanks for your response -you will have gathered I'm not technically
trained.
Please clarify, so my thick skull will comprehend -

As I understand it, Norwich Union boxes have the ability to transmit data on
a/ the exact road a vehicle is travelling on (in order to levy the
apprpriate insurance charge (B road more expensive than motorway, for
example)
b/ the exact location of the vehicle - useful if subsequently reported
stolen ...

and to do this, their unit is permanently "on" (transmitting). Or is this a
misconception - it's a "slave" device which transmits only when
interrogated?

I don't have a SatNav system, so have no idea how they work. Are you saying
there's TWO units/radio signals - one to a base unit, the other (bluetooth)
to the screen/audio unit (i.e it has 2 component parts)?

The core of both systems must be "satellite navigation" since both report
location and movement (one to the in-car screen, the other to Norwich
Union) - the question is, can the criminal's detectors confuse the two,
resulting in "black box" cars being targetted as having SatNav system for
theft? An important consideration for potential NU customers, like me.

"PeteS" < PeterSmith1954@googl
email.com> wrote in message
news:1160743837.660569.305280@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> Silvabod wrote:
>
> You are comparing two different systems. Bluetooth detectors work with
> SatNav because they have Bluetooth to do playback across hands free
> kits. Because the hands free kits may operate for a while (sometimes
> permanently) with the ignition off the BT signal is detectable.
>
> Why the Bluetooth is detectable depends on the hands free kit - many of
> them do not turn off immedaitely after ignition off, (a phone call may
> be in progress, for example) and some remain enabled while a valid
> bluetooth device is connected. That comes under the heading of 'systems
> design' and there could be good reasons they are set that way, and may
> even be configurable.
>
> The Norwich union unit is somewhat different. To the best of my
> knowledge it is not a satnav solution but a tracking unit (I design
> both types of unit, and there is a major difference) which would be
> unlikely to have a bluetooth system embedded.
>
> Cheers
>
> PeteS
>

PeteS

2006-10-23, 10:33 pm

Silvabod wrote:[color=darkred
]
> Thanks for your response -you will have gathered I'm not technically
> trained.
> Please clarify, so my thick skull will comprehend -
>
> As I understand it, Norwich Union boxes have the ability to transmit data on
> a/ the exact road a vehicle is travelling on (in order to levy the
> apprpriate insurance charge (B road more expensive than motorway, for
> example)
> b/ the exact location of the vehicle - useful if subsequently reported
> stolen ...
>
> and to do this, their unit is permanently "on" (transmitting). Or is this a
> misconception - it's a "slave" device which transmits only when
> interrogated?
>
> I don't have a SatNav system, so have no idea how they work. Are you saying
> there's TWO units/radio signals - one to a base unit, the other (bluetooth)
> to the screen/audio unit (i.e it has 2 component parts)?
>
> The core of both systems must be "satellite navigation" since both report
> location and movement (one to the in-car screen, the other to Norwich
> Union) - the question is, can the criminal's detectors confuse the two,
> resulting in "black box" cars being targetted as having SatNav system for
> theft? An important consideration for potential NU customers, like me.
>
> "PeteS" < PeterSmith1954@googl
email.com> wrote in message
> news:1160743837.660569.305280@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

Satnav systems operate with a GPS receiver. That's what gets the
positional information (and other things, but we'll leave that out for
now).

In barest form, that's the core of a satnav system. To display
information, we then need maps and some software to drive it *if it is
being used to let the driver know* where they are / route planning etc.
That is not necessary if the information is simply to be relayed to a
server.

For the server connection, it is likely a GPRS connection (cell system)
is being used. Note that in dense areas, GSM (GPRS) can actually be
used for navigation because the cells are so dense - by tracking the
cells the phone attaches to, we can track movement.

Advanced user satnav (such as TomTom etc) then have a bluetooth module
to stream the audio data to a hands free kit. As noted, a purely
tracking unit is not designed to give the driver feedback, although it
could if it had the requisite map data and route planning software.

The applications for the data are different, to put it plainly.

A SatNav would have a GPS receiver and likely a Bluetooth transceiver.
A tracking module would usually have a GPS receiver and a GPRS unit.

Cheers

PeteS

Silvabod

2006-10-24, 7:33 am

Thanks again. The essence of my question was - could bluetooth detectors
detect Norwich Union boxes (i.e confuse them with SatNav systems) - I think
your answer is "no".

"PeteS" < PeterSmith1954@googl
email.com> wrote in message
news:1161635987.523224.80710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Silvabod wrote:
>
> Satnav systems operate with a GPS receiver. That's what gets the
> positional information (and other things, but we'll leave that out for
> now).
>
> In barest form, that's the core of a satnav system. To display
> information, we then need maps and some software to drive it *if it is
> being used to let the driver know* where they are / route planning etc.
> That is not necessary if the information is simply to be relayed to a
> server.
>
> For the server connection, it is likely a GPRS connection (cell system)
> is being used. Note that in dense areas, GSM (GPRS) can actually be
> used for navigation because the cells are so dense - by tracking the
> cells the phone attaches to, we can track movement.
>
> Advanced user satnav (such as TomTom etc) then have a bluetooth module
> to stream the audio data to a hands free kit. As noted, a purely
> tracking unit is not designed to give the driver feedback, although it
> could if it had the requisite map data and route planning software.
>
> The applications for the data are different, to put it plainly.
>
> A SatNav would have a GPS receiver and likely a Bluetooth transceiver.
> A tracking module would usually have a GPS receiver and a GPRS unit.
>
> Cheers
>
> PeteS
>

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