Cingular cell phone service - Why the RAZR is killing Motorola

Author

Why the RAZR is killing Motorola

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2007-05-16, 10:33 pm

> It's one of the most iconic phones on the market, and
> something that redefined the way that consumers look at
> mobile phones. But the Motorola RAZR V3 has turned from a
> thing of beauty into something more sinister.. because the
> RAZR is slowly killing Motorola.

http://tinyurl.com/yobb67

(now let's see how long it takes Navas to mount a defense)

rjdriver

2007-05-17, 7:33 am

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-0DA616. 17092616052007@nntp1
.usenetserver.com...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yobb67
>
> (now let's see how long it takes Navas to mount a defense)
>

Never cared for the RAZRs. Too thin. Seemed more like a toy. Tactile
feedback was poor. Difficult to operate by feel alone. When the time came
to upgrade my antique V60t, I opted for the V365. Has most of the bells and
whistles of the RAZRs, and it *feels* like a phone in your hand.

Bob

DTC

2007-05-17, 10:33 am

rjdriver wrote:
> Never cared for the RAZRs. Too thin. Seemed more like a toy. Tactile
> feedback was poor. Difficult to operate by feel alone. When the time came
> to upgrade my antique V60t, I opted for the V365. Has most of the bells and
> whistles of the RAZRs, and it *feels* like a phone in your hand.

I just upgraded my Motorola 557 to the V3xx phone now. The sound quality of
listening to people appears to be not as good as I find myself asking them
to repeat what they are saying...something I hardly never had to do with
the 557.

Over the next few days I'll swap the SIM cards on the two new V3xx phones
and the 557 and call different people and see if there really is a problem.

SMS

2007-05-17, 3:33 pm

DTC wrote:

> I just upgraded my Motorola 557 to the V3xx phone now. The sound quality
> of listening to people appears to be not as good as I find myself asking
> them to repeat what they are saying...something I hardly never had to do
> with the 557.

As far as RAZR's go, the V3xx is supposed to be an improvement over
previous models in terms of voice quality. There have been complaints
about the speakerphone, and about some tinnieness, in the reviews, but
compared to earlier RAZRs, they are better.

> Over the next few days I'll swap the SIM cards on the two new V3xx
> phones and the 557 and call different people and see if there really is
> a problem.

The V557 has very good voice quality. The CNET review stated:

"Audio quality was spotty at times, which is typical with the Cingular
network in San Francisco. We had several dropped calls, as well as calls
that went in and out. When working correctly, the handset itself has
solid sound quality."

"http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/motorola-v557/4505-6454_7-31313291.html"

Are you comparing apples to apples here? Maybe you were using the V557
in an area with better coverage than where you were using the V3xx. The
AT&T/Cingular network in the San Francisco Bay Area is not all that
great, as CNET noted.

The deal killer for the V3xx, as CNET stated, is that it isn't a world
phone. "It's disappointing that the phone is not fully quadband like the
Razr V3. As such, it won't have as much coverage outside of the United
States. It's a baffling change to say the least, and one that makes the
phone significantly less consumer-friendly."

"http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/motorola-razr-v3xx/4505-6454_7-31987377.html"

LOL, can someone explain the difference between "not fully quadband" and
simply "not quadband." Looks like the CNET writer needs to take some
writing classes.

[Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
Wireless Service.]

SMS

2007-05-17, 3:33 pm

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yobb67
>
> (now let's see how long it takes Navas to mount a defense)

The strangest thing about the V3xx is how they dropped 900 MHz. They
turned it from a world phone, into a phone that is significantly less
usable outside North America where 900 MHz is the most widely used band.

I guess this was a cost saving move, but why even keep 1800 MHz once you
decide that it isn't a world phone?

As to a defense, don't you realize that anything he buys automatically
becomes the best thing for everyone else as well?

Todd Allcock

2007-05-17, 10:33 pm

At 17 May 2007 12:55:44 -0700 SMS wrote:

> The strangest thing about the V3xx is how they dropped 900 MHz. They
> turned it from a world phone, into a phone that is significantly less
> usable outside North America where 900 MHz is the most widely used band.

Because of 3G support at 2100MHz, from what I understand. When the V3xx
debuted, 5-band chips either weren't available or cost effective, so
2100MHz UMTS replaced 900 on North American units, and replaced 800 on
Euro/Asian models.

The new Nokia N units, like the N95 are 5-band phones. I suspect future
V3xx-series models will be as well.

> I guess this was a cost saving move, but why even keep 1800 MHz once
> you decide that it isn't a world phone?

Because it's still a world phone, just one with less coverage. Put it
this way- it works more places than an 800/1900-only phone does, so it
will suffice for most tourists who'd be sticking to metro ares (London,
Paris, Rome, etc.)

> As to a defense, don't you realize that anything he buys automatically
> becomes the best thing for everyone else as well?

I find that's true for most people. Don't take this the wrong way,
because I certainly respect your opinions, but you rarely recommend
anything but Verizon for postpaid, PagePlus for prepaid, and never
suggest a phone model without AMPS.

You've obviously selected those products and services as "best" for you
and your family, so it's natural for you to think them as best for
others. Regardless of your opinion of John, he does his homework as
well, and has selected his "best" products and services as well, and is
also inclined to believe their the best for most others as well. How is
that any different than you or I?

SMS

2007-05-17, 10:33 pm

Todd Allcock wrote:

> I find that's true for most people. Don't take this the wrong way,
> because I certainly respect your opinions, but you rarely recommend
> anything but Verizon for postpaid, PagePlus for prepaid, and never
> suggest a phone model without AMPS.

Right, but I don't tell people to buy the specific phone model that I
have. In fact I could tell them some negatives about my phone (V325),
such as the external antenna jack being inside the battery compartment,
and the lack of ability to use a Motorola Professional Hands Free Car
Kit with the model I have.

> You've obviously selected those products and services as "best" for you
> and your family, so it's natural for you to think them as best for
> others.

Well personally I go by coverage in the areas where I spend the most
time. However I understand that some people care more about other
things, such as the ability to use the same phone model in much of
Europe and much of Asia, something that I can't do except in Korea and a
few other Asian and European countries with CDMA networks, and even in
those European and Asian countries with both GSM and CDMA the GSM
networks are often more developed because they've been around longer,
the reverse of North America. On the other hand, even if I had Cingular,
I'd likely not be doing international roaming, I'd get a prepaid SIM
card. I can do that anyway, I just need a separate phone, rather than a
quad-band GSM phone.

I have often recommended T-Mobile prepaid as the lowest cost prepaid
option, for those people that can live with T-Mobile coverage. I even
got my mother on T-Mobile prepaid, after AT&T/Cingular jacked up her
rates when they converted her from TDMA/AMPS over to GSM. This started a
movement in South Florida, where all her friends did the same thing.
They could almost do a Seinfeld episode about how the seniors change
long distance and wireless companies so much, and usually these are
people that don't have to watch every dollar. In this case, nearly
everyone she knew was on AT&T, which was the predominant carrier in
South Florida. They all had very low cost rate plans, sub-$30. When
Cingular took over, and began "encouraging" people to change to GSM,
those sweetheart plans went away, and suddenly they were paying $50 for
what used to cost sub-$30. Now they're all paying 10¢ a minute on
T-Mobile, and using OneSuite (which I also was responsible for) for long
distance now that they now longer have unlimited off-peak on their cell
phones. Verizon isn't that great in South Florida, where they are at
1900 MHz, and PagePlus is too complicated to explain to people over a
certain age (uh-oh).

[Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
Wireless Service.]

DTC

2007-05-17, 10:33 pm

SMS wrote:
> DTC wrote:
>
[color=darkred]
> Are you comparing apples to apples here? Maybe you were using the V557
> in an area with better coverage than where you were using the V3xx.

Pretty much all the same areas about town. Had a call an hour ago and I
simply could not understand what the guy was saying...even after having him
repeat himself several times. He sounded very horse, as the other calls.

Jackson

2007-05-18, 12:33 pm

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:464cb1fa$0$2717
5$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> DTC wrote:
>

Make sure you have removed the tiny piece of round plastic protective
sheeting that covers the small round earpiece on the phone when shipped.

[color=darkred]
>
> As far as RAZR's go, the V3xx is supposed to be an improvement over
> previous models in terms of voice quality. There have been complaints
> about the speakerphone, and about some tinnieness, in the reviews, but
> compared to earlier RAZRs, they are better.
>
>
> The V557 has very good voice quality. The CNET review stated:
>
> "Audio quality was spotty at times, which is typical with the Cingular
> network in San Francisco. We had several dropped calls, as well as calls
> that went in and out. When working correctly, the handset itself has solid
> sound quality."
>
> "http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/motorola-v557/4505-6454_7-31313291.html"
>
> Are you comparing apples to apples here? Maybe you were using the V557 in
> an area with better coverage than where you were using the V3xx. The
> AT&T/Cingular network in the San Francisco Bay Area is not all that great,
> as CNET noted.
>
> The deal killer for the V3xx, as CNET stated, is that it isn't a world
> phone. "It's disappointing that the phone is not fully quadband like the
> Razr V3. As such, it won't have as much coverage outside of the United
> States. It's a baffling change to say the least, and one that makes the
> phone significantly less consumer-friendly."
>
> "http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/motorola-razr-v3xx/4505-6454_7-31987377.html"
>
> LOL, can someone explain the difference between "not fully quadband" and
> simply "not quadband." Looks like the CNET writer needs to take some
> writing classes.
>
>
>
> [Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular posts
> to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away, and
> alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's Wireless
> Service.]

Jackson

2007-05-18, 12:33 pm

"DTC" < no_spam@move_along_f
olks.foob> wrote in message
news:8CY2i.7497$296.6781@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> rjdriver wrote:
>
> I just upgraded my Motorola 557 to the V3xx phone now. The sound quality
> of listening to people appears to be not as good as I find myself asking
> them to repeat what they are saying...something I hardly never had to do
> with the 557.

Make sure you have removed the tiny piece of round plastic protective
sheeting that covers the small round earpiece on the phone when shipped.

>
> Over the next few days I'll swap the SIM cards on the two new V3xx phones
> and the 557 and call different people and see if there really is a
> problem.

Kurt

2007-05-18, 12:33 pm

In article <CfKdnQj6AYy- VtDbnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d
@comcast.com>,
"Jackson" <jacksonx@no_spam.z> wrote:

> "DTC" < no_spam@move_along_f
olks.foob> wrote in message
> news:8CY2i.7497$296.6781@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Make sure you have removed the tiny piece of round plastic protective
> sheeting that covers the small round earpiece on the phone when shipped.
>
Removing the unit from the box helps, too.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

DTC

2007-05-18, 10:33 pm

In-Reply-To: <labolide-C07D93.09540118052007@news.giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <88t3i.7993$296.4773@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 02:18:44 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.48.160.66
X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net
X-Trace: newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net 1179541124 71.48.160.66 (Fri, 18 May 2007 19:18:44 PDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 19:18:44 PDT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com alt.cellular.cingular:79437

Kurt wrote:
> In article <CfKdnQj6AYy- VtDbnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d
@comcast.com>,
> "Jackson" <jacksonx@no_spam.z> wrote:
>
> Removing the unit from the box helps, too.

The red tabs on all the plastic covers are pretty obvious.

I tried both of the V3xx phones and compared the audio quality to my V557.
The V3xx phones most certainly don't not sound as clear. Called Cingular
today and they're sending me a self-addressed paid shipping box to return them.

Jack D. Russell, Sr.

2007-05-19, 7:33 am

DTC

2007-05-19, 10:33 am

Jack D. Russell, Sr. wrote:
> The blue protective plastic covering the earpiece on the V3xx doesn't
> have a red tab on it. The speaker will be chrome/silver when the plastic
> film is removed. Of all the various phones I've owned, (I am hearing
> challenged) the audio on the V3xx is the best, hands down.

It might have been simply a different way they protect parts of the phone
during shipment, all I recall off the top of my head was five or six clear
plastic strips with an offset tab to bring attention to them for you to
remove them.

I was hoping it was just that one phone that was bad, but since I tried
both of them it narrowed it down. Callers had a distinct horse or raspy
sound when I compared them back to back with the same callers by swapping
the SIM cards.

Jackson

2007-05-20, 12:33 pm

"DTC" < no_spam@move_along_f
olks.foob> wrote in message
news:fpE3i.11336$Ut6.2533@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Jack D. Russell, Sr. wrote:
>
> It might have been simply a different way they protect parts of the phone
> during shipment, all I recall off the top of my head was five or six clear
> plastic strips with an offset tab to bring attention to them for you to
> remove them.

"The blue protective plastic covering the earpiece on the V3xx doesn't
have a red tab on it. The speaker will be chrome/silver when the
plastic film is removed. Of all the various phones I've owned, (I am
hearing challenged) the audio on the V3xx is the best, hands down.
--
Jack"

Exactly, this one does not have an obvious tab on it as mentioned in a
previous post. It is a very small and not obvious piece of plastic that
needs to be removed or you will have the problem with low volume since the
speaker is actually covered with plastic sheet. The spot of plastic is only
about 1/8" to 3/16" in diameter. If you didn't remove that not so obvious
tiny piece of protective sheeting on the earpiece then that's the issue.

>
> I was hoping it was just that one phone that was bad, but since I tried
> both of them it narrowed it down. Callers had a distinct horse or raspy
> sound when I compared them back to back with the same callers by swapping
> the SIM cards.

DTC

2007-05-21, 4:33 am

Jackson wrote:
> "DTC" < no_spam@move_along_f
olks.foob> wrote in message
> news:fpE3i.11336$Ut6.2533@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "The blue protective plastic covering the earpiece on the V3xx doesn't
> have a red tab on it. The speaker will be chrome/silver when the
> plastic film is removed. Of all the various phones I've owned, (I am
> hearing challenged) the audio on the V3xx is the best, hands down.

I think the confusing thing here is that your phone may have been packaged
differently, but nevertheless the point is...I did indeed remove all
protective covers including the red tabbed one over the earpiece.

Jack D. Russell, Sr.

2007-05-21, 7:33 am

====================
====================
===================
* Reply by Jack D. Russell, Sr. < jackru$$ell2@notmail
.com>
* Newsgroup: alt.cellular.cingular
* Reply to: All; "DTC" < no_spam@move_along_f
olks.foob>
* Date:Mon, 21 May 2007 05:21:47 -0400
* Subj: Re: Why the RAZR is killing Motorola
====================
====================
====================
=======
D>> The blue protective plastic covering the earpiece on the V3xx
D>> doesn't have a red tab on it. The speaker will be chrome/silver
when
D>> the plastic film is removed. Of all the various phones I've owned,
D>> (I am hearing challenged) the audio on the V3xx is the best, hands
D>> down.
D>
D> I think the confusing thing here is that your phone may have been
D> packaged differently, but nevertheless the point is...I did indeed
D> remove all protective covers including the red tabbed one over the
D> earpiece.

I don't think so. I've researched the V3xx extensively before I
purchased one. There are now several variants colorwise, but the
phones are basically the same. The only differences are minor
improvements in the later variants where design of insignificant
components are cosmetically improved. The earpiece speaker covering
has been universal to all variants. While I think that Moto should
have made the covering obvious like the other plastic coverings (By
red tab or otherwise) they didn't. Many users were surprised to find
that it existed at all, but most were smart enough to realize that a
blue "M" on a Gold, Platinum, Red etc. phone was out of place. The
Gunmetal versions being the exception as it could easily compliment
the other blue elements of the design.
Regardless, it's obvious that you missed the covering. It had no red
tab etc. Your complaint of poor audio is one of only a handful of
similar complaints to be found in all of the different forums, boards
etc, where the V3xx is discussed extensively. Some of those were
defective units. Most of those...didn't remove the blue plastic film.
--
Jack

John Navas

2007-05-24, 4:33 am

On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:55:44 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote in < 464cb33e$0$27237$742
ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Defense of what? I've never been a fan of the original V3. The new
V3xx is another matter entirely, name similarity notwithstanding.
[color=darkred]
>The strangest thing about the V3xx is how they dropped 900 MHz. They
>turned it from a world phone, into a phone that is significantly less
>usable outside North America where 900 MHz is the most widely used band.
>
>I guess this was a cost saving move, but why even keep 1800 MHz once you
>decide that it isn't a world phone?

You obviously don't understand the cost structure of GSM chipsets.
3 band chipsets happen to be the low cost point, which is important
given the brutal price competition in cell phones.

>As to a defense, don't you realize that anything he buys automatically
>becomes the best thing for everyone else as well?

Hardly. You've obviously got a reading comprehension problem as well.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/ Cingu...less_FA
Q>

P.Schuman

2007-05-29, 10:33 pm

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:464cf605$0$2718
4$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Todd Allcock wrote:
FYI - I have the Virgin Mobile pre-paid - as it appears to be the cheapest
with the only req of $20 every 90 days ....
>
> I have often recommended T-Mobile prepaid as the lowest cost prepaid
> option, for those people that can live with T-Mobile coverage. I even
> got my mother on T-Mobile prepaid, after AT&T/Cingular jacked up her
> rates when they converted her from TDMA/AMPS over to GSM. This started a
> movement in South Florida, where all her friends did the same thing.
> They could almost do a Seinfeld episode about how the seniors change
> long distance and wireless companies so much, and usually these are
> people that don't have to watch every dollar. In this case, nearly
> everyone she knew was on AT&T, which was the predominant carrier in
> South Florida. They all had very low cost rate plans, sub-$30. When
> Cingular took over, and began "encouraging" people to change to GSM,
> those sweetheart plans went away, and suddenly they were paying $50 for
> what used to cost sub-$30. Now they're all paying 10¢ a minute on
> T-Mobile, and using OneSuite (which I also was responsible for) for long
> distance now that they now longer have unlimited off-peak on their cell
> phones. Verizon isn't that great in South Florida, where they are at
> 1900 MHz, and PagePlus is too complicated to explain to people over a
> certain age (uh-oh).
>
>
>
>
> [Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
> posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
> and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
> Wireless Service.]

Todd Allcock

2007-05-29, 10:33 pm

At 29 May 2007 21:14:23 -0500 P.Schuman wrote:

> FYI - I have the Virgin Mobile pre-paid - as it appears to be the
cheapest
> with the only req of $20 every 90 days ....

PagePlus (a Verizon reseller) is $10 every 90 days, and T-Mobile is $100
for the first year, but only $10/year after the first.

John Richards

2007-06-10, 4:33 am

"P.Schuman" < pschuman_NO_SPAM_ME@
interserv.com> wrote in message news:%457i.8675$4Y.1795@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...
>
> FYI - I have the Virgin Mobile pre-paid - as it appears to be the cheapest
> with the only req of $20 every 90 days ....

The only drawback being that Virgin won't let you use an existing Sprint phone.
When I switched from T-Mobile postpaid to T-Mobile prepaid, I had no
trouble getting them to activate my RAZR at no charge.
--
John Richards

SMS

2007-06-11, 10:33 pm

P.Schuman wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:464cf605$0$2718
4$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> FYI - I have the Virgin Mobile pre-paid - as it appears to be the cheapest
> with the only req of $20 every 90 days ....

Actually it's very expensive compared to T-Mobile and PagePlus.

Michael Paris

2007-06-11, 10:33 pm

> The only drawback being that Virgin won't let you use an existing Sprint
> phone.
> When I switched from T-Mobile postpaid to T-Mobile prepaid, I had no
> trouble getting them to activate my RAZR at no charge.
> --
> John Richards
Thats because its a gsm phone, I did the same, when I bought a new phone to
replace my Cingular Nokia 6230, I just bought a Go Phone Sim and had my kids
use the phone when they were out playing with their friends.

John Navas

2007-06-13, 12:33 pm

On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:50:19 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote in < 464cb1fa$0$27175$742
ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>DTC wrote:
>
>
>As far as RAZR's go, the V3xx is supposed to be an improvement over
>previous models in terms of voice quality. There have been complaints
>about the speakerphone, and about some tinnieness, in the reviews, but
>compared to earlier RAZRs, they are better.

The V3xx (including sound and build quality) actually gets very good
reviews, both from reviewers and from users, as I know myself from
personal experience. You haven't actually used it, so you have no idea
what you're talking about (as usual).

>
>The V557 has very good voice quality.

Good, but not as good as the V3xx, either in terms of quality or in
terms of volume.

>Are you comparing apples to apples here? Maybe you were using the V557
>in an area with better coverage than where you were using the V3xx. The
>AT&T/Cingular network in the San Francisco Bay Area is not all that
>great, ...

It actually is good in the Bay Area, arguably the best of any carrier.

>[Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
>posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
>and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
>Wireless Service.]

All that does is trash attws with partial threads, making is _less_ (not
more) usable. Kindly stop.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/ Cingu...less_FA
Q>

John Navas

2007-06-13, 12:33 pm

On Thu, 17 May 2007 17:40:40 -0700, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote in < 464cf605$0$27184$742
ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>Todd Allcock wrote:
>
>
>Right, but I don't tell people to buy the specific phone model that I
>have. In fact I could tell them some negatives about my phone (V325),

Now I understand why you have service problems. :)

>[SNIP long, weak self-defense]

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/ Cingu...less_FA
Q>

John Navas

2007-06-13, 12:33 pm

On Fri, 18 May 2007 11:48:35 -0400, "Jackson" <jacksonx@no_spam.z> wrote
in <v- 6dnZroJYJWV9DbnZ2dnU
VZ_q6vnZ2d@comcast.com>:

>"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:464cb1fa$0$2717
5$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
>Make sure you have removed the tiny piece of round plastic protective
>sheeting that covers the small round earpiece on the phone when shipped.

Yep! That seems to be a common mistake. On my V3xx it was blue.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/ Cingu...less_FA
Q>

LinkBot