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Cellular forums Home > Archive > Cingular cell phone service > July 2007 > Re: Apple Flops: iPhone will flop like Mac Mini, Cube, Newton, etc, etc
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Re: Apple Flops: iPhone will flop like Mac Mini, Cube, Newton, etc, etc
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|
| asjbiotek@gmail.com 2007-06-30, 4:33 am |
| On Jun 30, 12:31 am, Todd Allcock <eleccon...@AmericaOnLine.com>
wrote:
> Java is great for "feature phones" with proprietary OSes, but WM, Palm or
> Symbian phones get along fine without Java apps, as will the iPhone.
> But, again, there's nothing inherently "java-incompatible" about the
> iPhone except that Apple didn't deem such support necessary. If it's a
> barrier to sales, they can squeeze out a JVM download if/when necessary.
All Symbian and Linux phones have Java built-in (go to Symbian blogs
and most of the apps they talk about are Java apps), as does many new
Windows Mobile phones. The Blackberry is 100% Java. Most feature
phones also have it. The only exception in USA is Verizon, which has
Brew as the alternative.
As to apps, if you don't have Java, you lose out on the vast majority
of games and apps out there, which is why if you go to Windows Mobile
forums (especially when they first came out with no JVM) you kept
getting people trying to install it, a very funny situation since the
Microsoft people in there kept disparaging it anyways. I also find it
amusing to see windows mobile people keep installing Opera Mini or
Google Maps Mobile while others try to get them to switch. How's
Microsoft's Compact Dotnet Framework btw? LOL....
As to the iPhone, it's a useless pretty thing that is like a high-
priced hooker who just sits there doing nothing. Nice to look at, but
helpless in a pitch.
| |
| Tim Murray 2007-06-30, 10:33 pm |
| On Jun 30, 2007, asjbiotek@gmail.com wrote:
> The advantage overall is that to developers Java is a superior
> development platform in general than creating native apps in terms of
> ease of development, range of target markets, and safety.
>
So how about taking the side of the end user? Where native apps are faster,
have smoother, more uniform UI, can share data, and (if the developer cares
to do it right) result in a richer experience?
| |
|
| "Tim Murray" <no-spam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW. C2AC77C2000A1BC4F028
4648@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
> On Jun 30, 2007, asjbiotek@gmail.com wrote:
>
> So how about taking the side of the end user? Where native apps are
> faster,
> have smoother, more uniform UI, can share data, and (if the developer
> cares
> to do it right) result in a richer experience?
from the side of the end user, you're more likely to be screwed on apps if
your phone doesn't support java, because no developer can provide native
apps for all phones- they can't even provide them for all the *popular*
phones. take google and the iphone for example- you can't get a native
gmail app for the iphone, but you can't use the java app either. so you're
stuck with the inferior web interface.
| |
|
| In article <AIDhi.7528$Rw1.1348@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
"ed" <news@no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
> "Tim Murray" <no-spam@thankyou.com> wrote in message
> news:0001HW. C2AC77C2000A1BC4F028
4648@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
>
> from the side of the end user, you're more likely to be screwed on apps if
> your phone doesn't support java, because no developer can provide native
> apps for all phones- they can't even provide them for all the *popular*
> phones. take google and the iphone for example- you can't get a native
> gmail app for the iphone, but you can't use the java app either. so you're
> stuck with the inferior web interface.
Or checking via POP, with Apple's extremely slick UI, which is what I'm
doing.
The iPhone probably *will* represent a single unified mobile platform
large enough to justify targeting it with native apps in a year or two.
And Apple will probably open it up over time as well, at least to select
developers. (Which will certainly include Google.)
Right now, it's the best phone on the market, and the best iPod ever
made. That's enough to start with. If it becomes the best handheld
computing platform in the world as well in a couple of years, that's
just gravy as far as I'm concerned.
--
"That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
that interesting?"
- George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006
| |
|
| "ZnU" <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in message
news:znu-113EA9. 22031530062007@indiv
idual.net...
> In article <AIDhi.7528$Rw1.1348@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,
> "ed" <news@no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
>
>
> Or checking via POP, with Apple's extremely slick UI, which is what I'm
> doing.
then you miss out on all the good reasons gmail stuff, like search, eh?
<snip>
> Right now, it's the best phone on the market, and the best iPod ever
> made. That's enough to start with. If it becomes the best handheld
> computing platform in the world as well in a couple of years, that's
> just gravy as far as I'm concerned.
yeah, i've heard the commercials already. :D
| |
|
| In article <1fEhi.42912$5j1.33302@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net>,
"ed" <news@no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
> "ZnU" <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in message
> news:znu-113EA9. 22031530062007@indiv
idual.net...
>
> then you miss out on all the good reasons gmail stuff, like search, eh?
It's probably only a matter of time before Spotlight ends up on the
iPhone. Heh.
[snip]
--
"That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
that interesting?"
- George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006
| |
|
| "ZnU" <znu@fake.invalid> wrote in message
news:znu-DDCA87. 22562030062007@indiv
idual.net...
> In article <1fEhi.42912$5j1.33302@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net>,
> "ed" <news@no-atwistedweb-spam.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
> It's probably only a matter of time before Spotlight ends up on the
> iPhone. Heh.
and that would be better than the iphone having java available (and hence
java gmail) because most people prefer to keep gigs of email on their ipod
phone rather than media, right? :D
| |
| Todd Allcock 2007-07-01, 4:33 am |
| At 30 Jun 2007 13:18:43 -0700 ed wrote:
> even with more advanced phones, it's good to have java available,
> because the app you want may not have a native version available.
I'll conceed that- it's like still having MS-DOS compatibility on a
Windows PC- it's not a preferred solution, but it's useful when no
alternative is available.
> for example, with the iphone, the native google maps app is obviously
> the prefereable choice- however, on the same phone, the java gmail app
> *would* be a much better choice than the web based mobile gmail, but
it's not an option, and there's
> also no native version.
Fair enough. In my case I use GMail's POP support with the built-in e-
mail client on my PPC phone, since I removed the Java VM to save storage
memory.
My point was that lack of Java support isn't the iPhone's achilles' heel.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| Todd Allcock 2007-07-01, 4:33 am |
| At 30 Jun 2007 20:18:01 +0000 asjbiotek@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Todd AllcockNoBalls wrote:
Wow... did you stay up all night thinking of that?
I'll let you in on a little secret- I post on Usenet using my real name.
With my last name, having people make fun of it is hardly breaking new
ground. I first heard that one in 5th or 6th grade- some 30+ years ago.
You'll have to wake up pretty f---ing early in the morning to come up
with one I haven't heard before high school.
While we're taking the gloves off, I'd like to remind you that I was
having a civil exchange of opinions with you about Java and iPhones- you
turned it nasty two posts back. Why people can't simply disagree civily
and discuss a difference of opinions without getting nasty always boggles
my mind, even after years on usenet.
own[color=darkred]
>
> actually i bash phones that are so crippled they cannot take advantage
> of the largest library of apps out there.
Really? Most phones run MS-DOS? (My WinMo phone can, via PocketDOS...
but again, VMs should be a last resort.)
>
> must be news to all those large companies who are heavily java like
> google, ebay, and probably 80% of all financial institutions in the
> world. The nasdaq is even moving to real time java...
Again, I'm not saying platform independence is a bad thing. If you have
processing power to spare, you can survive the performance hit. I assume
eBay and NASDAQ probably use sportier equipment than my phone's 200MHz
OMAP CPU...
Similarly, how many large apps are still coded in assembly? It's no
longer necessary with the power of modern PCs.
the[color=darkred]
>
> there are both benefits and disadvantages to that obviously. and yet
> there are many studiesthat show java surpassing even C++ in speed.
I'd be surprised if those studies weren't comparing best-case scenario
for Java, and worst-case for C.
> hello??? i suggest getting off ur XXX and looking them up because
> they are two of the most popular apps out there, more so than
> photoshop in terms of usage.
I guess it's a demographic thing- I'm sure they're very popular with the
under-20, still living in Mom's basement crowd...
I did have to Google them to see what they were (but I didn't have to
"get off my XXX" to look them up- my WinMo phone has a more than adequate
browser to search Google.) I'd never heard of them, although I use
BitTorrent.
>
> hey, no kidding allcock and noballs.
Careful- you're repeating yourself- shows a definite lack of imagination.
> that's what it was meant for....a
> way to write across devices.
Exactly. As I said- for when there's no other option. Nobody makes
native RAZR apps, so RAZR owners have to choose between Java and bupkis.
>
> 1. it's better for all because the market for apps becomes very large
> and consumers get lots of choice.
Yep- 1000 Game-boy quality games games, and three decent apps: Google Maps,
GMail, and Opera Mini. Coincidentally, all three are free.
> 2. Please show me some studies that indicate large consumer
> dissatisfaction.
There isn't any- people are happy to have ANY option for a "dumbphone."
I used a couple of Java apps back before I owned phones that could run
anything else. (A card game or two and a browser- maybe Doris or
ReqWireless- I forget.) They became unnecessary when I switched to
Symbian (NetFront made a good native browser for Nokia Series 60) then
WinMo phones. As my phones have increased in capability so have my apps.
> in fact, i can show u a hell lot more people
> complaining about windows mobile in general than their apps.
Probably true- WinMo can certainly be flakey, and errant 3rd party apps
can certainly crash the device. Another advantage for Java apps- they
generally can only crash the VM. Sadly, midlets just don't take
advantage of what high-end phones can offer.
available[color=dark
red]
>
> hey ballsie, maybe it's because there are not that many native apps
> available? Is it our fault windows on mobiles are so niche that not
> that many write to it?
Niche? There are tens of thousands of apps written for the Palm and
WinMo OSes. They've both been around since before the turn of the
century- long before Java found it's way onto phones!
> maybe if the phones actually didn't crash every
> minute running native apps more peopl would use it.
Maybe Java is a more popular platform because it's available on phones
you get for free...
>
> hey cockhead,
That one I actually heard in 2nd grade...
> maybe because THEN it would NOT run much LESS apps than
> free phones?
True, but it would lower the consumer's expectations of what the phone is
capable of. Sort of like why they don't display HDTVs in electronics
stores by showing old B&W reruns of "I Love Lucy" on them. The idea
behind the iPhone (at least from a marketing standpoint) is that this is
some kind of magical communications device like no other. It kind of
takes the wind out of the sails for the guy who stood in line 13 hours to
spend $600 to show it off to a $20 Nokia phone owner who then says "hey,
my phone has that same game!"
or no[color=darkred]
>
> ayah, ballcock, seen any 3d widget games lately? any IM widgets on
> phones?
No- I haven't. I have even less interest in using an iPhone than I have
in going back to a Nokia Series 40 phone...
Are you so sure that IM or 3D widgets WON'T become available over time?
I doesn't seem like you've been any closer to an iPhone than I have.
>
> hey mr ballcock, u do know there are more than desktop apps nowadays
> right?
Yes. I'm old enough to have been alive before there were desktops. And
I've used mobile computers since the late 90's, tethering them through
7200bps analog cellular connections.
> and btw, java runs on more than 3.5 billion devices today, from
> set top boxes and tivos, to blu ray high definition discs, to SIM
> cards on ur phone...
It's "YOUR," not "ur" - for chrissakes when will you Gen-Y posers learn
to leave the IM-speak in IM where it belongs? It comes off about as
mature as a pre-teen girl who still dots her "i"'s with little smiley
faces or valentine hearts. Come back and finish this debate when you're
old enough to vote or drink.
> and the security and health cards of the US military
> and several entire countries, to servers running the biggest
> businesses today hell more than basic in the 70s....
So? What does that have to do with the crappy midlet support you're
taking about? I'm not knocking the Java language itself- I'm defending
Apple's marketing decision not to run shi--y little midlets on their
supposed high-end phone. I'm not even saying I AGREE with the decision-
I'm just saying I UNDERSTAND it. There's a big difference. Why are you
getting your knickers in such a twist because someone disagrees with you?
You MUST be used to that by now!
Nokia[color=darkred]
>
> then i suggest telling that to the tons of users on high end nokia and
> windows and linux phones running java apps.
Who are they? The only three decent Java phone apps (mentioned above)
are superfluous on a high-end phone. But you already know that- you even
added a resounding "DUH" to that a post or two ago. We're going around
in circles. Couple that with those oh-so-clever bastardizations of my
last name and I have to conceed defeat. You can emerge from our debate
victorious and go back to watching Spongebob or whatever the kids without
dates do on a Saturday night these days.
> like i said, i don't give
> a ballcock what u want or don't want. the market says differently.
> lol.
I suspect your understanding of "markets" begins and ends with the 7-
Eleven.
> btw, i wouldn't call an unstable os like windows mobile a "better os"
> than pretty muc.h any other os out there.
Obviously you don't have much experience with it based on your
misconceptions- many people like developing for it because the devices
have a lot of capability, and you aren't constrained by the limits of the
VM. The SDK is free- you should try it...
....or, go back to playing in the "sandbox."
> i'm lolling at u, mr cock and no balls.lol
*Sigh* You insult worse than you debate. Sad, really... I expected
better of today's highschoolers...
> you ever heard of webapps? iphone users will just have to make do with
> less feature-laden html i guess they'll just have to wait several
> minutes for the pages to show up....
Why? Webapps can be stored locally and executed quickly. The more
sophisticated the browser, the more sophisticated the webapp can be.
From Apple's PR machine at least, iPhone Safari is pretty capable.
> * getting ready to watch movie while tapping on my opera mini
Web-based Google Groups? You need a better phone.
After posting this directly from QMail, a Windows Mobile NNTP reader,
I'll start downloading the tonight's episode of Doctor Who directly onto
my MDA with WinMobile Torrent.
Got any Java apps for that?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
| |
| asjbiotek@gmail.com 2007-07-01, 4:33 am |
| On Jul 1, 1:00 am, Todd Allcock <eleccon...@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:
>
> Wow... did you stay up all night thinking of that?
>
Considering that you seem to be actually pushing a shitty unstable OS
called Windows Mobile, it took me about 10 ms to figure out you are
Allcock but no balls.... bwwahhahahbwahahaha!
!!!
> I'll let you in on a little secret- I post on Usenet using my real name.
> With my last name, having people make fun of it is hardly breaking new
> ground. I first heard that one in 5th or 6th grade- some 30+ years ago.
>
> You'll have to wake up pretty f---ing early in the morning to come up
> with one I haven't heard before high school.
It must have been the trauma of those years that made you a
masochist, eh? I mean, only a total masochist would like enduring all
those crashes and reboots of Microsoft's mobile OS initiatives.
>
> While we're taking the gloves off, I'd like to remind you that I was
> having a civil exchange of opinions with you about Java and iPhones- you
> turned it nasty two posts back. Why people can't simply disagree civily
> and discuss a difference of opinions without getting nasty always boggles
> my mind, even after years on usenet.
lighten up.
>
> Really? Most phones run MS-DOS? (My WinMo phone can, via PocketDOS...
> but again, VMs should be a last resort.)
You do remember we are talking about mobile apps, right?
> I guess it's a demographic thing- I'm sure they're very popular with the
> under-20, still living in Mom's basement crowd...
well dude, the point was they are more widely used than photoshop, and
are thus pretty darn popular.
>
> I did have to Google them to see what they were (but I didn't have to
> "get off my XXX" to look them up- my WinMo phone has a more than adequate
> browser to search Google.) I'd never heard of them, although I use
> BitTorrent.
yeah, Azureus is just the most popular open source software out there,
just won that exact award last year actually..
http://torrentfreak.com/and-the-award-goes-to-azureus/
get with the program, mi amigo de nada cojones!
>
>
>
> Careful- you're repeating yourself- shows a definite lack of imagination.
hey, no kidding allcock and noballs.
>
>
> Exactly. As I said- for when there's no other option. Nobody makes
> native RAZR apps, so RAZR owners have to choose between Java and bupkis.
Razr owners don't care what's running that game they just downloaded,
and as far as I know, most don't see any problems playing them. Your
point? If the customers don't care, why should you? Java gives them
the ability to select and play hundreds of games and apps, no negative
there, all positive.
As I said, the overall benefits of Java to the entire community
(developers and end-users) is pretty obvious, and so far, I have yet
to see consumers in any number complaining about the apps they have
downloaded, which is more than can be said for complaints regarding
the stability of the Windows Mobile OS.
And as i said, it's doubly funny that windows mobile users keep
wanting to download opera mini to replace their native browsers, or
downloading all those java apps and games because windows mobile is so
niche in the mobile space there aren't as many native apps for it.
You gotta go where the action is, as they always say.
>
>
>
> Yep- 1000 Game-boy quality games games, and three decent apps: Google Maps,
> GMail, and Opera Mini. Coincidentally, all three are free.
>
>
> There isn't any- people are happy to have ANY option for a "dumbphone."
> I used a couple of Java apps back before I owned phones that could run
> anything else. (A card game or two and a browser- maybe Doris or
> ReqWireless- I forget.) They became unnecessary when I switched to
> Symbian (NetFront made a good native browser for Nokia Series 60) then
> WinMo phones. As my phones have increased in capability so have my apps.
>
>
> Probably true- WinMo can certainly be flakey, and errant 3rd party apps
> can certainly crash the device. Another advantage for Java apps- they
> generally can only crash the VM. Sadly, midlets just don't take
> advantage of what high-end phones can offer.
>
>
>
> available
>
>
> Niche? There are tens of thousands of apps written for the Palm and
> WinMo OSes. They've both been around since before the turn of the
> century- long before Java found it's way onto phones!
>
>
> Maybe Java is a more popular platform because it's available on phones
> you get for free...
>
>
>
> That one I actually heard in 2nd grade...
>
>
> True, but it would lower the consumer's expectations of what the phone is
> capable of. Sort of like why they don't display HDTVs in electronics
> stores by showing old B&W reruns of "I Love Lucy" on them. The idea
> behind the iPhone (at least from a marketing standpoint) is that this is
> some kind of magical communications device like no other. It kind of
> takes the wind out of the sails for the guy who stood in line 13 hours to
> spend $600 to show it off to a $20 Nokia phone owner who then says "hey,
> my phone has that same game!"
>
>
>
> or no
>
>
> No- I haven't. I have even less interest in using an iPhone than I have
> in going back to a Nokia Series 40 phone...
> Are you so sure that IM or 3D widgets WON'T become available over time?
> I doesn't seem like you've been any closer to an iPhone than I have.
>
>
>
> Yes. I'm old enough to have been alive before there were desktops. And
> I've used mobile computers since the late 90's, tethering them through
> 7200bps analog cellular connections.
>
>
> It's "YOUR," not "ur" - for chrissakes when will you Gen-Y posers learn
> to leave the IM-speak in IM where it belongs? It comes off about as
> mature as a pre-teen girl who still dots her "i"'s with little smiley
> faces or valentine hearts. Come back and finish this debate when you're
> old enough to vote or drink.
>
>
>
> So? What does that have to do with the crappy midlet support you're
> taking about? I'm not knocking the Java language itself- I'm defending
> Apple's marketing decision not to run shi--y little midlets on their
> supposed high-end phone. I'm not even saying I AGREE with the decision-
> I'm just saying I UNDERSTAND it. There's a big difference. Why are you
> getting your knickers in such a twist because someone disagrees with you?
> You MUST be used to that by now!
>
>
>
> Nokia
>
>
> Who are they? The only three decent Java phone apps (mentioned above)
> are superfluous on a high-end phone. But you already know that- you even
> added a resounding "DUH" to that a post or two ago. We're going around
> in circles. Couple that with those oh-so-clever bastardizations of my
> last name and I have to conceed defeat. You can emerge from our debate
> victorious and go back to watching Spongebob or whatever the kids without
> dates do on a Saturday night these days.
>
>
> I suspect your understanding of "markets" begins and ends with the 7-
> Eleven.
>
>
> Obviously you don't have much experience with it based on your
> misconceptions- many people like developing for it because the devices
> have a lot of capability, and you aren't constrained by the limits of the
> VM. The SDK is free- you should try it...
>
> ...or, go back to playing in the "sandbox."
>
>
> *Sigh* You insult worse than you debate. Sad, really... I expected
> better of today's highschoolers...
>
>
> Why? Webapps can be stored locally and executed quickly. The more
> sophisticated the browser, the more sophisticated the webapp can be.
> From Apple's PR machine at least, iPhone Safari is pretty capable.
>
>
> Web-based Google Groups? You need a better phone.
>
> After posting this directly from QMail, a Windows Mobile NNTP reader,
> I'll start downloading the tonight's episode of Doctor Who directly onto
> my MDA with WinMobile Torrent.
>
> Got any Java apps for that?
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
| |
| Roedy Green 2007-07-14, 4:33 am |
| On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 05:57:35 -0700, asjbiotek@gmail.com wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>To a consumer end user, there usually isn't (and should not be) any
>difference.between the two
The differences the consumer might notice:
1. greater availability of software. It does not have to be written
for a specific model of phone.
2. more efficient use of RAM.
3. less efficient use of CPU.
The usual problem is the lack of RAM in such beasts.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com
| |
| John Navas 2007-07-17, 10:33 pm |
| On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:34:27 GMT, Roedy Green
< see_website@mindprod
.com.invalid> wrote in
< 4i2h93to163a4tk1a3mg
44smbq5m25dj1e@4ax.com>:
>On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 05:57:35 -0700, asjbiotek@gmail.com wrote, quoted
>or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>
>The differences the consumer might notice:
>
>1. greater availability of software. It does not have to be written
>for a specific model of phone.
>
>2. more efficient use of RAM.
>
>3. less efficient use of CPU.
>
>The usual problem is the lack of RAM in such beasts.
The "consumer" couldn't care less about those things.
--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/ Cingu...less_FA
Q>
| |
| Roedy Green 2007-07-23, 4:33 am |
| On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 00:43:43 GMT, John Navas
< spamfilter1@navasgro
up.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :
>
>The "consumer" couldn't care less about those things.
The consumer might not think of the advantages in those terms, but he
certainly is impressed by how much software is available, and well it
runs.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com
|
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