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Cloning and Verizon?
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| Scott Ehrlich 2005-10-09, 5:48 pm |
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I am looking at some phones on ebay to replace the LG 6100 I have (I'm not
up for NE2 for another year but don't want to continue to crappy service
with the 6100 and don't want to renew too soon).
One seller brought up an interesting point, when I asked for the ESN, that
they didn't want to release it for fear of cloning if I had the MIN.
I had never heard of this, so I googled it, and learned about cloning very
quickly.
Is cloning still possible with current-day phones (up to 5 years ago) on
Verizon's network)? The models I'm looking at are AMPS/CDMA. If cloning
is NOT possible anymore with Verizon, I would want a definitive, reputable
web site saying so. It would be nice to refer other skeptical sellers
the links when I ask for the ESN prior to bid.
Thanks.
Scott
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| Scott Ehrlich wrote:
>
> Is cloning still possible with current-day phones (up to 5 years ago)
> on Verizon's network)? The models I'm looking at are AMPS/CDMA. If
> cloning is NOT possible anymore with Verizon, I would want a
> definitive, reputable web site saying so. It would be nice to refer
> other skeptical sellers the links when I ask for the ESN prior to bid.
Why bother? If they don't give the ESN don't buy.
If they don't want to give you the ESN it's likely the case they
are just moving used phones (buy on eBay, turn around and sell on
eBay, etc.). They're dealing with a lot of phones and don't want to
bother looking up ESNs and responding with them. If it's someone
selling only 1 or 2 phones it's probably worse than that.
-Quick
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| Yea, I'm an eBay seller and I've had a few bad experiences where people
wanted to ESN only to do an ESN swap and an acct that they no longer wanted
to use. They took my ESN, added it to their acct, and then sold thier phone
to offset the costs of the monthly bill, rather than pay the $175 term
penalty.
My advise.. Don't ever give out an ESN as anyone can use it to add that
phone to an acct. If they do (Even though they have no plan on using it)
no one else will be able to activate that phone.
If your a seller, buyers should trust in your feedback, or your willingness
to guarantee the ESN to work (Refundable if not)
-
-
-
"Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0fc2f.21$q%.3@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> Scott Ehrlich wrote:
>
> Why bother? If they don't give the ESN don't buy.
>
> If they don't want to give you the ESN it's likely the case they
> are just moving used phones (buy on eBay, turn around and sell on
> eBay, etc.). They're dealing with a lot of phones and don't want to
> bother looking up ESNs and responding with them. If it's someone
> selling only 1 or 2 phones it's probably worse than that.
>
> -Quick
>
>
>
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|
| Uhhh, yea, right. Always a good idea to buy from large
sellers with lots of good feedback. But as a buyer why
should I take any risk at all? I'm not going to buy unless
I get an ESN I can verify with a call to VZW. I'm going
to let the seller take the risk. I figure that's part of your
cost of doing business. I don't see any reason for me to
even risk hassling with a return with a reputable seller.
-Quick
TH wrote:[color=darkred
]
>
> If your a seller, buyers should trust in your feedback, or your
> willingness to guarantee the ESN to work (Refundable if not)
>
> -
> -
> -
>
>
> "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0fc2f.21$q%.3@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
| |
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| Fair point. As a seller, I'd probably have to ensure your feedback is
good as well before providing that info.
Good luck!
TH
-
-
"Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4Mc2f.28$q%.10@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> Uhhh, yea, right. Always a good idea to buy from large
> sellers with lots of good feedback. But as a buyer why
> should I take any risk at all? I'm not going to buy unless
> I get an ESN I can verify with a call to VZW. I'm going
> to let the seller take the risk. I figure that's part of your
> cost of doing business. I don't see any reason for me to
> even risk hassling with a return with a reputable seller.
>
> -Quick
>
> TH wrote:
>
>
| |
| Scott Ehrlich 2005-10-09, 5:48 pm |
| In article <_3d2f.22377$WR2.16360@fed1read03>, TH <threeew@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Fair point. As a seller, I'd probably have to ensure your feedback is
>good as well before providing that info.
>
>Good luck!
>TH
>
As a point/counterpoint - as a buyer, how do I know the provided ESN is
valid for that phone? What is to prevent a seller from giving me some
other, good ESN and give me a phone that cannot be activated?
Yes, there is the feedback system, but maybe one or two bad responses out
of many would likely get lost?
Just another perspective...
Scott
>
>-
>-
>"Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:4Mc2f.28$q%.10@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
| |
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| If you get ripped off there is the feedback system.
If you get ripped off you can file a complaint or report with eBay.
eBay is constantly policing and weeding out bad sellers and buyers.
If you don't want any "what if's" at all, deal only with your local
B&M stores.
-Quick
Scott Ehrlich wrote:[color=darkred
]
> In article <_3d2f.22377$WR2.16360@fed1read03>, TH
> <threeew@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> As a point/counterpoint - as a buyer, how do I know the provided ESN
> is
> valid for that phone? What is to prevent a seller from giving me
> some other, good ESN and give me a phone that cannot be activated?
>
> Yes, there is the feedback system, but maybe one or two bad responses
> out
> of many would likely get lost?
>
> Just another perspective...
>
> Scott
>
| |
|
| Agreed. If you eBay it, buy with Paypal only and ALWAYS pay with your
credit card. Paypal has a buyer protection policy, but if they can't
recover funds, you can always dispute the purchase with your CC company.
"Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Ake2f.80$BZ5.75@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> If you get ripped off there is the feedback system.
> If you get ripped off you can file a complaint or report with eBay.
> eBay is constantly policing and weeding out bad sellers and buyers.
> If you don't want any "what if's" at all, deal only with your local
> B&M stores.
>
> -Quick
>
> Scott Ehrlich wrote:
>
>
| |
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| I don't quite understand that.
I want out of my contract, and don't want to pay the ETF.
I change the ESN on my account over to another phone, then sell my original
phone, whose ESN is now clear.
But my name and credit are still obligated to pay the monthly bill until the
end of my contract.
Other than the profit on the original phone, where do I gain?
Dean
____________________
_____________
"TH" <threeew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cpc2f.21838$WR2.8020@fed1read03...
> Yea, I'm an eBay seller and I've had a few bad experiences where people
> wanted to ESN only to do an ESN swap and an acct that they no longer
> wanted to use. They took my ESN, added it to their acct, and then sold
> thier phone to offset the costs of the monthly bill, rather than pay the
> $175 term penalty.
>
> My advise.. Don't ever give out an ESN as anyone can use it to add that
> phone to an acct. If they do (Even though they have no plan on using it)
> no one else will be able to activate that phone.
>
> If your a seller, buyers should trust in your feedback, or your
> willingness to guarantee the ESN to work (Refundable if not)
>
> -
> -
> -
>
>
> "Quick" <Quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0fc2f.21$q%.3@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
| |
|
| Dean wrote:
> I don't quite understand that.
>
> I want out of my contract, and don't want to pay the ETF.
>
> I change the ESN on my account over to another phone,
> then sell my original phone, whose ESN is now clear.
>
> But my name and credit are still obligated to pay the
> monthly bill until the end of my contract.
>
> Other than the profit on the original phone, where do I
> gain?
Just that. So you decide you are no longer going to
use your phone but are still under contract. Maybe
switched to another carrier. Maybe only a couple of
months to go. You don't want to pay the ETF and
you're not going to use that phone any more. You
can't sell it since the buyer won't be able to activate
it since it's already activated on your account.
(Is this true?). I don't believe you have the option to
simply deactivate an ESN on the website. I think
you can only activate another ESN which replaces
the existing one. That would free up your phone
to sell it. something like that anyway.
-Quick
| |
| Bob the Printer 2005-10-11, 2:48 am |
|
"Dean" <dean173@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ViG2f.5167$AR1.3247@trndny09...
>I don't quite understand that.
>
> I want out of my contract, and don't want to pay the ETF.
>
> I change the ESN on my account over to another phone, then sell my
> original phone, whose ESN is now clear.
>
> But my name and credit are still obligated to pay the monthly bill until
> the end of my contract.
>
> Other than the profit on the original phone, where do I gain?
Read below where they say that they used the phone sale to help pay for the
monthly bill..
I personally think it's stupid to do that, but who am I to say what others
should do...:-)
[color=darkred]
> ____________________
_____________
> "TH" <threeew@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cpc2f.21838$WR2.8020@fed1read03...
| |
| Justin 2005-10-11, 2:48 am |
| Dean wrote on [Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:27:49 GMT]:
> I don't quite understand that.
>
> I want out of my contract, and don't want to pay the ETF.
>
> I change the ESN on my account over to another phone, then sell my original
> phone, whose ESN is now clear.
>
> But my name and credit are still obligated to pay the monthly bill until the
> end of my contract.
>
> Other than the profit on the original phone, where do I gain?
So, what if the person who has the phone that owns the new ESN you
switched to figures this out, do they then get free service and can run
up a huge bill in someone else's name?
| |
|
| EXACTLY..
-
-
"Quick" <quick7135-news@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:O%G2f.440$7h7.33@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Dean wrote:
>
> Just that. So you decide you are no longer going to
> use your phone but are still under contract. Maybe
> switched to another carrier. Maybe only a couple of
> months to go. You don't want to pay the ETF and
> you're not going to use that phone any more. You
> can't sell it since the buyer won't be able to activate
> it since it's already activated on your account.
> (Is this true?). I don't believe you have the option to
> simply deactivate an ESN on the website. I think
> you can only activate another ESN which replaces
> the existing one. That would free up your phone
> to sell it. something like that anyway.
>
> -Quick
>
>
| |
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| Justin wrote:
> Dean wrote on [Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:27:49 GMT]:
>
> So, what if the person who has the phone that owns the
> new ESN you switched to figures this out, do they then
> get free service and can run up a huge bill in someone
> else's name?
ooo, good point. -:) But I'd guess most people buying
a used phone already have a plan (and phone number)
that they want to use it on.
-Quick
| |
| Justin 2005-10-11, 5:48 pm |
| Quick wrote on [Tue, 11 Oct 2005 05:59:03 GMT]:
> Justin wrote:
>
> ooo, good point. -:) But I'd guess most people buying
> a used phone already have a plan (and phone number)
> that they want to use it on.
True enough, but when they go to register the "new" ESN of the used
phone and find out that it's already being used, they will figure out
that it's already on a plan?
| |
|
| Justin wrote:
> Quick wrote on [Tue, 11 Oct 2005 05:59:03 GMT]:
>
> True enough, but when they go to register the "new" ESN
> of the used phone and find out that it's already being
> used, they will figure out that it's already on a plan?
Sure. But let's say I did that. I've had my number for 6?
years. I don't know anyone to call in Batswana and I've
got plenty of minutes on my current plan. I'm not going
to cancel my service for a while to save a monthly charge
or two and give up my no longer offered plan and promotion
and possibly my number. Not worth anything to me.
I'm going to be pretty annoyed by the inconvenience.
So strictly from an opportunistic point of view it's probably
not going to happen. And then (I like to believe) a lot of
people are still honest so it's probably not going to happen.
And then a lot of people won't figure out what's going on
so it's probably not going to happen. ...But it could, and
it would be poetic justice.
-Quick
-Quick
| |
|
| In article <zJH2f.24275$WR2.20586@fed1read03>, threeew@hotmail.com
says...[color=darkred]
Well..... not sure about that .... I "traded" phone several times with
friends that are still on contract. As I understand contract is not
attached to specific ESN but to person/phone number.
AP
| |
|
| AP wrote:
> In article <zJH2f.24275$WR2.20586@fed1read03>,
> threeew@hotmail.com says...
>
>
> Well..... not sure about that .... I "traded" phone
> several times with friends that are still on contract. As
> I understand contract is not attached to specific ESN but
> to person/phone number.
Sure. That's not the same thing. It's like this:
Lets say you have 1 phone and a plan.
You switch to Cingular. Your CDMA phone
won't work there and they gave you a phone
anyway. You want to sell your CDMA phone.
When you "trade" phones you are activating a
different ESN that *replaces* the current one.
In this case you want to "deactivate" an ESN
with no replacement. I don't think you can do
that on the web site. I'm guessing it can be done
but you would have to be smart enough to call
VZW and ask... I suspect a supervisor would
be happy to special case it for you.
-Quick
-Quick
| |
| Isaiah Beard 2005-10-11, 5:48 pm |
| Scott Ehrlich wrote:
> I am looking at some phones on ebay to replace the LG 6100 I have (I'm not
> up for NE2 for another year but don't want to continue to crappy service
> with the 6100 and don't want to renew too soon).
>
> One seller brought up an interesting point, when I asked for the ESN, that
> they didn't want to release it for fear of cloning if I had the MIN.
Total BS. You're not GOING to have the correct ESN/MIN combination, as
long as the phone is inactive like it SHOULD BE if he is selling it.
But, if ti's a CDMA phone the issue is mostly moot anyway.
> Is cloning still possible with current-day phones (up to 5 years ago) on
> Verizon's network)?
Nothing is impossible, but at present, cloning is what I would call
"insanely improbable." The expertise and resources required to pull it
off given current technology would be so immense that if someone
actually CAN do it, then you have worse things to worry about than a
high phone bill.
On the AMPS side, A-key is in use which adds a layer of security.
A-keys change with each call in a predetermined "pseudorandom" sequence.
This information is known only by the handset and the network, and is
never shared over the air, nor provided to any human being without
physical posession of the phone AND the right equipment to extract it.
Even then, the a-key extracted would only be good that one time, and by
the time it's used, the phone (and network) have already moved on to the
next A-Key, making the information you've obtained already meaningless.
Without the correct key in the correct sequence, the "clone" will never
authenticate properly and call attempts will be rejected.
On the CDMA side, cloning is even harder. Even assuming you have the
correct ESN/MIN combination, the the correct chip rate, PN offset and
signal mask must be selected. Like a-kay, this changes for every call
made or received and vary based on BOTH a pseudorandom sequence AND a
time reference. If anything is off, the call attempts will fail.
In either case, the amateur street-corner clone phreak-wannabee would
have to get VERY VERY lucky to get the combinations right.
> The models I'm looking at are AMPS/CDMA. If cloning
> is NOT possible anymore with Verizon, I would want a definitive, reputable
> web site saying so.
That's what Google is for.
> It would be nice to refer other skeptical sellers
> the links when I ask for the ESN prior to bid.
The seller should be told to contact their carrier and ask them about
security. If they are unwilling to accept that, then quite frankly,
they aren't worth dealing with. I'm leaning towards the likelihood that
the seller is stonewalling you because something is fishy about their
phone. The phone should already be deactivated, meaning there is no
valid MIN association with the ESN. This makes cloning pretty darn
difficult even if no security measures were put in place.
If the phone is active on ANY account, then I would never bid on it. An
active phone should NOT be for sale unless the seller intends to pay
your monthly bills. :)
--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.
| |
| Isaiah Beard 2005-10-11, 5:48 pm |
| Scott Ehrlich wrote:
>
> As a point/counterpoint - as a buyer, how do I know the provided ESN is
> valid for that phone?
Generally, when I've sold phones on eBay (and I've sold many) and have
been asked for the ESN, I accompany my response with a digital camera
photo of the ESN sticker on the phone. At the very least this assures
them that I have *A* phone with that ESN, and I guess they'd have to
trust that in fact, that's the phone I'm going to send to them (and of
course that IS my intention).
Again, this is what feedback is for.
> What is to prevent a seller from giving me some
> other, good ESN and give me a phone that cannot be activated?
> Yes, there is the feedback system, but maybe one or two bad responses out
> of many would likely get lost?
Well, getting an ESN from the seller and winding up with a phone that
doesn't match significantly ups the ante beyond plain feedback. If the
seller has stated that you're getting a phone with X ESN, and they end
up giving you a phone with Y ESN that also happens to be blacklisted,
then the seller has committed fraud (it's also a good idea to ask the
seller a question through the eBay site, rather than sending them a
plain e-mail... this way eBay has a record of the conversation). You
can then file a fraud report, often times get your money back, and the
seller gets booted from eBay.
--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.
| |
| Isaiah Beard 2005-10-11, 5:48 pm |
| TH wrote:
> Yea, I'm an eBay seller and I've had a few bad experiences where people
> wanted to ESN only to do an ESN swap and an acct that they no longer wanted
> to use. They took my ESN, added it to their acct, and then sold thier phone
> to offset the costs of the monthly bill, rather than pay the $175 term
> penalty.
I'm VERY skeptical of that. VZW can generally tell when a user has done
a *228 to their phone to activate it. If they swapped the account to an
ESN on a phone they don't have in their possession, they can't activate
it, and it will show on the account screen that the activation of that
phone never occurred.
Even further, swapping out to a phone not in your possession raises the
risk that person who *does* own that phone will discover waht you've
done, and take it as carte blanche to make calls on your account. You
may be intending to ditch the account, but the credit liability is still
on you. And, if someone makes $2,000 or so of calls on an account you
only intended to welch on for a mere $175 or so, those $2,000 could mean
the difference on how vigorously VZW will try to collect on it, or
whether you're going to ever get post-paid cell service with any carrier
again. And you can't exactly claim fraud, considering you authorized
the ESN swap, with fraudulent intentions of your own.
--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.
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