Verizon wireless - Breaking Rumor: Apple iPhone goes enterprise on Jan. 21

Author

Breaking Rumor: Apple iPhone goes enterprise on Jan. 21

4phun

2008-01-17, 10:33 pm

AT&T prepping to bring iPhone to corporate and business customers
- Apple iPhone goes enterprise on Jan. 21
Posted by Will on Thursday, January 17th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

The enterprise market is a huge money-maker for carriers and
manufacturers alike. Just take a look at the leading smartphone
platform in the US. The RIM-made BlackBerry platform is the push-
emailing, Outlook server compatible, enterprise-handset of choice
among the corporate-set. Sure, the iPhone has already taken the second-
highest market share in the smartphone segment, but cracking the
mainstream corporate market would drive up market like mad.

There are already many businessmen and businesswomen (or is it
businesspeople? Political correctness, bah) bugging their IT
departments to support the iPhone, and there are even enterprise
iPhone users that don't even care that their IT departments are
lagging on iPhone support. Well, it seems that AT&T is getting set to
officially give the iPhone some corporate-love.

One of BGR's tipsters have indicated that, come January 21, AT&T will
be offering the iPhone to its corporate and business customers. All
discounts associated with corporate and business accounts will still
be valid - although there may be special iPhone data plans of $25 and
higher that will be require mandatory subscription. Corporate and
business customers looking to bring the iPhone into their enterprise
environment will have to undergo a special pre-activation process
before activating the iPhone through iTunes.

Now, it's unclear whether or not the iPhone's entry into the AT&T's
official corporate stable marks Apple and AT&T's intent to bring
Microsoft Outlook Exchange support to the iPhone.

links

http://www.intomobile.com/2008/01/1...-on-jan-21.html

http://www.intomobile.com/wp-conten...look-server.jpg

Contrary to what the image above (from BGR) might lead you to believe,
there is no native support for MS Exchange on the iPhone. But, we sure
hope the US iPhone duo is working to bring Outlook server integration
to the iPhone - that would just make our week.

Apple iPhone Confused - Wants To Be Enterprise Phone
http://www.intomobile.com/2007/04/2...rise-phone.html

Avaya gives iPhone some enterprise prowess - Avaya one-X Mobile coming
to iPhone
http://www.intomobile.com/2007/12/1...-to-iphone.html

Apple iPhone does Enterprise - will have standard OSX VPN-client and
Quick Look for Word and Excel Files
http://www.intomobile.com/2007/06/2...xcel-files.html

AT&T iPhone Business Edition coming soon
http://www.intomobile.com/2007/11/1...oming-soon.html

iPhone syncs with Microsoft Exchange via Synchronica's Mobile Gateway
3.0
http://www.intomobile.com/2007/07/1...gateway-30.html

Prilosec

2008-01-18, 7:33 am

Sorry to burst your Apple bubble----few companies are going to pay a
super-premium price for a "phone" that is 75% entertainment device. You may
want one, but that's as far as it's going to go. Business buys Blackberry
(or Window Mobile) because these are business-centric devices, not an
entertainment device with some communication ability.
"4phun" <vic.healey@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d362ea74-ec00-4d38-bbcf- caa939e6eb6a@i3g2000
hsf.googlegroups.com...
> AT&T prepping to bring iPhone to corporate and business customers
> - Apple iPhone goes enterprise on Jan. 21
> Posted by Will on Thursday, January 17th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
>
> The enterprise market is a huge money-maker for carriers and
> manufacturers alike. Just take a look at the leading smartphone
> platform in the US. The RIM-made BlackBerry platform is the push-
> emailing, Outlook server compatible, enterprise-handset of choice
> among the corporate-set. Sure, the iPhone has already taken the second-
> highest market share in the smartphone segment, but cracking the
> mainstream corporate market would drive up market like mad.
>
> There are already many businessmen and businesswomen (or is it
> businesspeople? Political correctness, bah) bugging their IT
> departments to support the iPhone, and there are even enterprise
> iPhone users that don't even care that their IT departments are
> lagging on iPhone support. Well, it seems that AT&T is getting set to
> officially give the iPhone some corporate-love.
>
> One of BGR's tipsters have indicated that, come January 21, AT&T will
> be offering the iPhone to its corporate and business customers. All
> discounts associated with corporate and business accounts will still
> be valid - although there may be special iPhone data plans of $25 and
> higher that will be require mandatory subscription. Corporate and
> business customers looking to bring the iPhone into their enterprise
> environment will have to undergo a special pre-activation process
> before activating the iPhone through iTunes.
>
> Now, it's unclear whether or not the iPhone's entry into the AT&T's
> official corporate stable marks Apple and AT&T's intent to bring
> Microsoft Outlook Exchange support to the iPhone.
>
> links
>
> http://www.intomobile.com/2008/01/1...-on-jan-21.html
>
> http://www.intomobile.com/wp-conten...look-server.jpg
>
> Contrary to what the image above (from BGR) might lead you to believe,
> there is no native support for MS Exchange on the iPhone. But, we sure
> hope the US iPhone duo is working to bring Outlook server integration
> to the iPhone - that would just make our week.
>
> Apple iPhone Confused - Wants To Be Enterprise Phone
> http://www.intomobile.com/2007/04/2...rise-phone.html
>
> Avaya gives iPhone some enterprise prowess - Avaya one-X Mobile coming
> to iPhone
> http://www.intomobile.com/2007/12/1...-to-iphone.html
>
> Apple iPhone does Enterprise - will have standard OSX VPN-client and
> Quick Look for Word and Excel Files
> http://www.intomobile.com/2007/06/2...xcel-files.html
>
> AT&T iPhone Business Edition coming soon
> http://www.intomobile.com/2007/11/1...oming-soon.html
>
> iPhone syncs with Microsoft Exchange via Synchronica's Mobile Gateway
> 3.0
> http://www.intomobile.com/2007/07/1...gateway-30.html

larry

2008-01-18, 10:33 am

4phun <vic.healey@gmail.com> wrote in news:d362ea74-ec00-4d38-bbcf-
caa939e6eb6a@i3g2000
hsf.googlegroups.com:

> Posted by Will

Who? Will? Is he with Associated Press?....(c;

Business wants nothing to do with iPhoneys with CAMERAS in them....just
like any other SELLphone.

Todd Allcock

2008-01-18, 12:33 pm

At 18 Jan 2008 05:49:10 -0500 Prilosec wrote:
> Sorry to burst your Apple bubble----few companies are going to
> pay a super-premium price for a "phone" that is 75% entertainment
> device.

True, but that's not the point- some companies will allow you to use your
own device for corporate e-mail if compatible. It's a win-win- they don't
have to pay for your phone, and you don't have to schlep two phones around.
If the iPhone can get BES or (true) Exchange support, that willbe a oon
for iPhone users who want to carry one device.

> You may want one, but that's as far as it's going to go. Business
> buys Blackberry (or Window Mobile) because these are business-centric
> devices, not an entertainment device with some communication ability.

Right, but RIM is licensing a BIS/BES clients for other devices- some
Nokias and WinMos include one. If that trend continues to the iPhone,
companies will Be happy to save thecost of a $300 Blackberry if you're
willing to bring your own BES-device to the table-particularly for the
executive-types who are fighting their IT departments over this issue now.

The upcoming Lotus Notes support is a baby-step in that direction.

Bill Kearney

2008-01-18, 12:33 pm

> The upcoming Lotus Notes support is a baby-step in that direction.

Have you ever USED Notes? It's a clusterXXXX. I've yet to find anyone that
likes using it.

Thomas T. Veldhouse

2008-01-18, 12:33 pm

In alt.cellular.attws Todd Allcock < elecconnec@americaon
line.com> wrote:
>
> The upcoming Lotus Notes support is a baby-step in that direction.
>

People still use that crap?

:-)

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

I read Playboy for the same reason I read National Geographic.
To see the sights I'm never going to visit.

Todd Allcock

2008-01-18, 3:33 pm

At 18 Jan 2008 13:09:50 -0500 Bill Kearney wrote:
>
> Have you ever USED Notes? It's a clusterXXXX. I've yet to find anyone
that
> likes using it.

Regardless, some orizations are, and for Apple it's at leastva step in the
right direction...

Jim Higgins

2008-01-18, 3:33 pm

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
> In alt.cellular.attws Todd Allcock < elecconnec@americaon
line.com> wrote:
>
> People still use that crap?
>
> :-)
>

There are even some who actually use Lotus123, Wordstar, Galaxy (word
processor that fit on *1* 360K floppy), Windows 3.1, etc. Luddites all.

--
Civis Romanus Sum

John Navas

2008-01-18, 3:33 pm

On 18 Jan 2008 18:22:05 GMT, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <veldy71@yahoo.com>
wrote in <5vc92dF1lj3heU1@mid.individual.net>:

>In alt.cellular.attws Todd Allcock < elecconnec@americaon
line.com> wrote:
>
>People still use that crap?

Lots!

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/ Cingu...less_FA
Q>

Mark Crispin

2008-01-18, 10:33 pm

I wonder how many enterprises will tolerate
The iPhone "iPhone" could not be restored. An unknown
error occurred (2001).
as the final phase of installation/setup of a new-in-box iPhone (or iPod
Touch) that happens not to have the latest software (and thus iTunes
offers to upgrade it).

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Bill Kearney

2008-01-18, 10:33 pm

"Todd Allcock" < elecconnec@AmericaOn
Line.com> wrote in message
news:fmqte3$ucs$1@ai
oe.org...
> At 18 Jan 2008 13:09:50 -0500 Bill Kearney wrote:
> that
>
> Regardless, some orizations are, and for Apple it's at leastva step in the
> right direction...

Ones that actually use software with spell checkers?

Bill Kearney

2008-01-18, 10:33 pm

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" <veldy71@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5vc92dF1lj3heU1
@mid.individual.net...
> In alt.cellular.attws Todd Allcock < elecconnec@americaon
line.com> wrote:
>
> People still use that crap?

Heh, I laughed out loud at the fanboys somehow trumpeting this as an
enterprise solution.

Todd Allcock

2008-01-19, 4:33 am

At 18 Jan 2008 21:07:38 -0500 Bill Kearney wrote:

the[color=darkred]
>
> Ones that actually use software with spell checkers?
>

Oops! Sorry- I tend to dash off most, if not all, of my usenet babblings
from the QMail client in my Windows Mobile 6 phone (like this post). A
great program, but certainly not as polished or as featured as a desktop
client. It lacks a spell checker, which is only half the problem- after
seven years of using touchscreen-based Windows CE devices I can often peck
the soft keyboard faster than than this phone can process the taps,
resulting in missed letters (like the "gan" in organization!) You'll also
notice a lot of lowercase "v" instead of spaces in my posts- that's just my
bad habit of allowing the stylus to touch down early on the way to the
spacebar! ;-)

(The skipped letters aren't so much a testiment to my great speed at
"typing" with a stylus as much as an indication of how underpowered the HTC
Wizard is with it's pokey 200MHz processor. If it's busy with too many
other tasks, like downloading e-mail while I'm listening to music, screen
input gets really intermittent!)

To clarify my badly written post, I'm not really a fan of either the iPhone
or Lotus Notes- it just seems like this is a small step towards Apple
addressing some of the device's shortcomings for enterprise e-mail.

Mark Crispin

2008-01-19, 4:33 am

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mark Crispin posted:
> I wonder how many enterprises will tolerate
> The iPhone "iPhone" could not be restored. An unknown
> error occurred (2001).
> as the final phase of installation/setup of a new-in-box iPhone (or iPod
> Touch) that happens not to have the latest software (and thus iTunes offers
> to upgrade it).

And now it's two bricks in the same evening. First get "Unknown error
1602" when trying to upgrade, then the silly thing goes into "recovery
mode" and you get "unknown error 2001".

Such fine, enterprise-level quality.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mitch

2008-01-19, 10:33 pm

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In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801190004170.502@pangtzu.panda.com>, Mark
Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mark Crispin posted:
>
> And now it's two bricks in the same evening. First get "Unknown error
> 1602" when trying to upgrade, then the silly thing goes into "recovery
> mode" and you get "unknown error 2001".
>
> Such fine, enterprise-level quality.

Readers will note that Mark is claiming his hatred of iPhone made him
buy one.
If you find that believable, he now claims he is having this problem
(just him!) on a new iPhone (new, but without the latest software?).

And he uses that unbelievable story to suggest that enterprise won't
accept it -- a segment of the market that has so much trouble with
high-tech they staff tech support before purchasing, and assume every
business has to accept garbage like malware and hardware/software
conflicts, just because their current system often has those problems.

Mark Crispin isn't being honest or reasonable.

Bill Kearney

2008-01-20, 4:33 am

"Mitch" <mitch@hawaii.rr> wrote in message
news:190120081824009
753%mitch@hawaii.rr...
>... isn't being honest or reasonable.

But at least he's coherent. You, OTOH, come off like a drunk fool.

Mark Crispin

2008-01-20, 3:33 pm

< 190120081824009753%m
itch@hawaii.rr>
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On Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Mitch posted:
> Readers will note that Mark is claiming his hatred of iPhone made him
> buy one.

Actually, it wasn't an iPhone, it was an iPod Touch. The iPhone without a
phone.

And yes, the purpose was to go and give the technology a full evaluation
without having retarded fanboys like Mitch in Hawaii claiming that "you
can't rate it fairly because you don't own one."

I refused an iPhone offered to me freely, because I have no need for a
locked 2G GSM phone. I'm quite happy on Verizon's 3G EV-DO cellular
network in the US, and Softbank's 3G UMTS network in Japan. But as the
purpose of the testing was to test the non-phone stuff and I don't care
about toy cameras, now that iPod Touch has the missing applications in the
software upgrade it can be done on that.

> If you find that believable, he now claims he is having this problem
> (just him!) on a new iPhone (new, but without the latest software?).

The bricking was on two successive iPod Touches, which indeed did not have
the latest software and thus needed to be upgraded.

However, a simple Google search, which apparently is beyond the capability
of fanboy Mitch in Hawaii, shows that people have been having this problem
with iPhone too.

Even better, a call to Apple Technical Support included the representative
saying that there have been quite a few of this exact problem lately.
After having me uninstall and reinstall iTunes and Quicktime on the
Macintosh, he stated that the only fix is to take it to a Apple repair
center for repair, but that since I just bought it I should take it back.
I did so (a 50 mile round trip), and the same thing happened to the second
one.

Actually, the Apple representative wasn't quite correct on that last bit.
It turns out that you can fix an iPod Touch or iPhone that has been
bricked in this fashion, so it wasn't really bricked. The fix is, hold on
to your seats boys and girls, to...
USE A WINDOWS MACHINE INSTEAD OF A MACINTOSH!!

Yessiree, iTunes on Macintosh can't do a software upgrade without making
the iToy useless, but iTunes on Windows can.

I contacted one of the people who got his (unhacked) iPhone bricked by the
latest software upgrade, and asked him if he used a Mac. He did; and I
suggested to him that he try it with Windows. Sure enough, that fixed it
for him too.

> And he uses that unbelievable story

Believe it because it happened. And I have the paperwork and digital
photos to prove that it did. And I have a reproducable script to make any
other new-in-box iPod Touch useless using a Macintosh.

If Apple does not believe me, I am willing to go to any of their stores
and show them how it's done. I can then show how to fix it using Windows.

> to suggest that enterprise won't
> accept it -- a segment of the market that has so much trouble with
> high-tech they staff tech support before purchasing, and assume every
> business has to accept garbage like malware and hardware/software
> conflicts, just because their current system often has those problems.

You obviously don't have a clue about what enterprises use.

> Mark Crispin isn't being honest or reasonable.

Sorry that your precious little Jesus device fails to live up to its hype.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mark Crispin

2008-01-20, 3:33 pm

< 190120081824009753%m
itch@hawaii.rr> < OdGdnTOIht3NcQ_anZ2d
nUVZ_tqtnZ2d@speakea
sy.net>
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On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Bill Kearney posted:
> "Mitch" <mitch@hawaii.rr> wrote in message
> news:190120081824009
753%mitch@hawaii.rr...
> But at least he's coherent. You, OTOH, come off like a drunk fool.

It was fun, actually, especially when I started Googleing around to find
other victims of the same problem. In the end, the only real waste was
the unnecessary 50 mile round trip to get a second one to break, because
the first one could have been fixed if only I had tried to use the Windows
system to fix it. But I just assumed that it would be better to use a
Macintosh with an iPod.

It did make me feel good to give that hint (to use Windows) to that fellow
who had his iPhone break. It worked for him, and he would have been stuck
otherwise.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mitch

2008-01-26, 10:33 pm

In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801201023210.644@pangtzu.panda.com>, Mark
Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

> And yes, the purpose was to go and give the technology a full evaluation
> without having retarded fanboys like Mitch in Hawaii claiming that "you
> can't rate it fairly because you don't own one."
Actually, I think I said you can't rate it's useability and design
fairly without giving using it a fair trial. I'm not accepting that
Mark Crispin could ever compare anything without using it; others might
compare features and compare just those usefully. Mark is too motivated
to make unfair generalizations, claims, and comparisons. (And now
namecalling, apparently, is his way to convince you he's more fair.)

> However, a simple Google search, which apparently is beyond the capability
> of fanboy Mitch in Hawaii, shows that people have been having this problem
> with iPhone too.
I didn't claim that no one was having the problem, or that it was with
just one version of the devices. I suggested it wasn't usual.

> And I have a reproducable script to make any
> other new-in-box iPod Touch useless using a Macintosh.
That part is too funny -- as though it would be hard to make almost any
device (especially those running Windows!) useless with a script.

>
> You obviously don't have a clue about what enterprises use.
Hah! Has Mark decided that Windows isn't the cause of the horrendous
Windows problems permeating all of business world?
Nope; he decides instead to ignore which platform creates the problems,
and just to claim it is my ignorance of what they use and what problems
they have (without stating where those problems lie, or maybe denying
that business has any computer problems?)

>
> Sorry that your precious little Jesus device fails to live up to its hype.
Boy, are YOU off-base. _I_ never once claimed that iPhone was such a
device. I stated only that _your_ stupid reasons weren't valid
complaints and criticisms.
I really don't care what device we are discussing -- you just made
stupid arguments against this one.

Snit

2008-01-26, 10:33 pm

"Mitch" <mitch@hawaii.rr> stated in post 260120081712294320%m
itch@hawaii.rr
on 1/26/08 8:12 PM:

[color=darkred]
> I didn't claim that no one was having the problem, or that it was with
> just one version of the devices. I suggested it wasn't usual.

I have noticed this tactic with the trolls - they hunt down every problem
they can with the iPhone or Leopard or the Mac or Apple in general and then
claim they have had these problems. Over time it becomes clear they are
lying - no reason to think any one person has all those problems, they
cannot describe the problems (sometimes to the extreme of not even being
able to quote or paraphrase error messages they claim to get), and their
stories change over time. They often will have people co-trolling with them
insisting they are right, but, of course, even those people cannot list the
all the problems that were claimed - not even the biggest supporters of the
trolls can keep track of the ever changing and growing lists.

Weird. Just weird. Who do they think they are fooling? People are just
not as dumb as the trolls need them to be in order to fall for such BS.

--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/f34z
Feel free to ask for the recipe.

Mark Crispin

2008-01-27, 4:33 am

< 190120081824009753%m
itch@hawaii.rr> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801201023210.644@pangtzu.panda.com> < 260120081712294320%m
itch@hawaii.rr> <C3C14771. A470D%CSMA@galloping
insanity.com>
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On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Snit posted:
> I have noticed this tactic with the trolls - they hunt down every problem
> they can with the iPhone or Leopard or the Mac or Apple in general and then
> claim they have had these problems.

There's one little problem with your little fanboy theory:

APPLE TAKES MY REPORT SERIOUSLY.

I am in contact with their engineers. They are *very* interested in
reproducing what I saw.

Apparently, there is a known problem with iTunes; on some hardware
configurations the USB port gets screwed up in the course of
loading/restoring the software onto the iToy and that leads to the
failure.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mark Crispin

2008-01-27, 4:33 am

< 190120081824009753%m
itch@hawaii.rr> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801201023210.644@pangtzu.panda.com> < 260120081712294320%m
itch@hawaii.rr>
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On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Mitch posted:
> Actually, I think I said you can't rate it's useability and design
> fairly without giving using it a fair trial.

I bricked two iPod Touch devices in one evening by doing nothing other
than going through the initial setup with iTunes on a Macintosh including
agreeing to let iTunes install the latest software.

It was only after the second one (and an unnecessary 50 mile round trip to
the store) that I thought of trying iTunes on a Windows system; and
Windows unbricked it.

Apple, at least, is very interested in following up on my report.
Apple's fanboys just want to silence me.

> I'm not accepting that
> Mark Crispin could ever compare anything without using it; others might
> compare features and compare just those usefully. Mark is too motivated
> to make unfair generalizations, claims, and comparisons.

According to Mitch, it is unfair to point out that:
. iPhone is locked to the worst network in the USA and Apple aggressively
attacks unlocked iPhones.
. iPhone lacks 3G - hence poor sales in Europe and no chance of sales in
Japan.
. iPhone's GSM performance is average; it is not the best-performing GSM
phone on the market.
. iPhone omits most Bluetooth functionality.
. iPhone lacks the ability to tether to a laptop (you are paying HOW MUCH
for a data plan just to do web browsing???).
. iPhone lacks voice dialing - a basic feature on all but the cheapest
phones.
. iPhone is very expensive, not just compared to other phones, but to
Internet tablets (such as Nokia N800) and phones combined.
. iPhone ($400) is expensive compared to iPod Classic ($330) which has
20 times as much storage capacity.
. iPod Touch 16GB ($400) and iPod Touch 8GB ($300) are expensive
compared to iPod Classic ($330) which has 10-20 times as much storage
capacity and is equally good at being an iPod.
. iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N800 ($230 on
Amazon) which has 2 SDHC slots (thus expandable to 32GB), has more
than twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so
can be tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, and is a
completely open platform.
. iPod Touch is somewhat expensive compared to Sony mylo second
generation ($300), which has more than twice the screen resolution
and has a Memory Stick Pro Duo slot expandable to 32GB.
. iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N810 ($230 on
Amazon) which has a miniSD slot expandable to 32GB, has more than
twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so can be
tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, has built-in
GPS, has a keyboard, and is a completely open platform.
. iPhone and iPod Touch are closed platforms, precluding third party
software development, and Apple aggressively attacks jailbroken
iPhones and iPod Touches. Apple's promise of an SDK is just that;
a promise, nothing more. Until it is available, and its capabilities
studied and verified to provide an open development environment, the
platform is closed.
. iPhone and iPod Touch can only be managed via iTunes, a consumer-grade
product that is not at all suitable in enterprises.
. iPhone and iPod Touch do not permit direct download from the Internet;
it must go through iTunes.
. iPhone and iPod Touch only permit synchronization with a single
computer. Even ancient Windows CE devices allowed synchronization
with multiple computers!
. iPhone and iPod Touch have only a basic contact management application
with very limited controls. For example, you can set how names are
displayed, but only for all names. If you set "Last Name, First
Name" (as in a phone book, or to display East Asian names correctly),
it screws up on names with middle names: it actually does "Last,
Middle, First" (e.g., "George W. Bush" comes out as "Bush W. George").
. iPhone and iPod Touch lack a task management application.
. iPhone and iPod Touch, by virtue of using capacitance technology,
preclude the use of a stylus for more precise screen operations.
. iPhone and iPod Touch have very low (320x480) screen resolution for an
Internet tablet (Nokia N800/N810 and Sony mylo all have 800x480).
Compared to Internet tablets, web page reading is quite painful due to
the need to zoom in and zoom out.

As part of my testing, I put the iPod Touch and the Nokia N800 side by
side and asked other people which gave a better Internet access
experience. Typical comments about the iPod Touch was "I can't read it",
"photos are washed out and grainy", "too hard to type on it".

The iPhone and iPod Touch are not particularly good Internet tablets; nor
is iPhone a particularly impressive smartphone. They are iPods that stray
into being Internet tablets and phones.

There is no doubt that iPhone and iPod Touch are great at being iPods, and
do a better job at being iPods than their non-Apple competition. However
(and this is a big however!) other Apple iPods (most notably iPod Classic
160GB) do an even better job at being iPods.

> (And now
> namecalling, apparently, is his way to convince you he's more fair.)

I namecall mindless fanboys like you who deny the truth when it fails to
jive with your beliefs.

It is UTTERLY UNACCEPTABLE that a new-in-box device bricks for no reason
other than installing the recommended software update as part of a
perfectly ordinary setup process.

> I didn't claim that no one was having the problem, or that it was with
> just one version of the devices. I suggested it wasn't usual.

Here's a hint to you and all other fanboys: a proper product test includes
letting your most hostile critics at it. If they can break it, doing
something perfectly ordinary, then the product needs to be fixed.

In this case, I didn't get a chance to test it at all before it bricked as
part of following the setup process. Note well that I did not do anything
other than the first-time setup and agree to its suggestion to upgrade the
software.

> That part is too funny -- as though it would be hard to make almost any
> device (especially those running Windows!) useless with a script.

Yes, it's funny.

It's really funny since the script consists of doing a perfectly ordinary
setup and installation.

Usually, Microsoft gets that right, even though they have trouble doing
such things as complying with published Internet standards.

> Hah! Has Mark decided that Windows isn't the cause of the horrendous
> Windows problems permeating all of business world?

It's better than the horrendous Macintosh problems that existed 20 years
ago. Or perhaps you are too young to remember that there was a time when
Macintosh was far ahead of Windows. There's a reason why it lost that
position, and that reason is far more based upon what Apple did than what
Microsoft did.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Steve de Mena

2008-01-27, 7:33 am

Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Mitch posted:
>
> I bricked two iPod Touch devices in one evening by doing nothing other
> than going through the initial setup with iTunes on a Macintosh
> including agreeing to let iTunes install the latest software.
>
> It was only after the second one (and an unnecessary 50 mile round trip
> to the store) that I thought of trying iTunes on a Windows system; and
> Windows unbricked it.
>
> Apple, at least, is very interested in following up on my report.
> Apple's fanboys just want to silence me.
>
>
> According to Mitch, it is unfair to point out that:

I'll point out that they have sold millions of these things, and
overall the reaction has been extremely positive.

Steve

larry

2008-01-27, 10:33 am

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801262303290.21314@pangtzu.panda.com:

> I bricked two iPod Touch devices in one evening by doing nothing other
> than going through the initial setup with iTunes on a Macintosh
> including agreeing to let iTunes install the latest software.
>
> It was only after the second one (and an unnecessary 50 mile round
> trip to the store) that I thought of trying iTunes on a Windows
> system; and Windows unbricked it.
>
>

Probably the best review on the net. Thanks, Mark. I didn't know about
the capacitive screen, but wondered why they didn't include a stylus like
the N800. This post was very educational. I've stolen it...(c;

Sorry you wasted so much money chasing bricked Apple products.

I bricked my N800 three times playing as root. Fortunately, Nokia figured
I was going to trash it so created the boot loader for Windoze to easily
restore it from scratch. Bricking it isn't dangerous in an open
environment.

Great post.

larry

2008-01-27, 10:33 am

Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in
news:3vmdnUwFnJqlwgH
anZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@gi
ganews.com:

> I'll point out that they have sold millions of these things, and
> overall the reaction has been extremely positive.
>
> Steve
>

iPhone buyers are appliance operators buying a WebTV appliance that's
totally restricted and easy-to-use. They outnumber computer geeks by
10,000,000:1 and are very susceptable to the massive iPxxx advertising
empire that made very mediocre, closed system, box office music boxes into
the most popular music sales machine in history. It's a tribute to the
power of propaganda and marketing, not of technology.

iPxxxx, any of them, shows what good propaganda can do and, I'm sure, is
very carefully watched by government propagandists worldwide.

Many of the 500 iPhone-owing geeks are members of these newsgroups. I can
tell that because they know usenet exists, putting them in the top 0.2
percentile of internet users. Most internet users have no idea usenet even
exists.

The effectiveness of the propagandists working for Apple is very apparent,
even to the most naive persons, in the absolute brand loyalty that is seen
here, to the point of being comical....or pathetic, I'm not sure which. If
Apple came out with a laptop that had a keyboard and screen that lit up to
an Apple logo and did nothing else, the loyalists would defend it to their
deaths as the finest computer equipment every created.

Apple doesn't even have to waste money putting in a consumer swappable
battery in its equipment any more. The loyalists think that's a "feature".

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2008-01-27, 10:33 am

In article < Xns9A3264DA02D3Fnoon
ehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
larry <noone@home.com> wrote:

> iPhone buyers are appliance operators buying a WebTV appliance that's
> totally restricted and easy-to-use.

Ah, so you're admitting--finally--that your sainted Nokia N800 is NOT
easy to use.

Thanks for clarifying that. The N800 and its ilk is for people who like
to geek around for the sake of geeking around, as opposed to people who
just want the information so they can go on with their lives.

You talk as if having an appliance is a bad thing--why is that? I can
only imagine your venom if you had to geek with your refrigerator even
1/8 as much as you geek with your N800.

larry

2008-01-27, 3:33 pm

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
769E3A. 11080027012008@nntp1
.usenetserver.com:

> Ah, so you're admitting--finally--that your sainted Nokia N800 is NOT
> easy to use.
>
>

While not a net appliance, like a mac or windoze, it's easier to use than
WinXP. For instance, updating all the installed software, all at once,
is a matter of booting Application Manager, then clicking the Check for
Updates button. The Linux hackers didn't like updating all the
improvements, one at a time, so they developed a .sys file that stay in
the update page. It automates the process even further, just updata the
..sys file and it scripts the update....one click.

Try updating all the software installed in your Win XP box and see what
hell you go through...not just the OS, but all the software installed.

N800 is MUCH easier to use than Win XP. Of course, like a real computer,
one must have certain basic skills of installing (another one button
operation from maemo.org's download database for user programs). If you
take the time to look at maemo.org's download section of freeware, notice
the green down arrow, which sends a .install file the tablet recognizes.
Application Manager boots, downloads the appropriate file catalog from
the authoring website, then downloads the latest software and installs
it, only asking you if you want to do it and warning you it's not Nokia's
fault if it doesn't work because Nokia had nothing to do with it...

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2008-01-27, 3:33 pm

In article < Xns9A3298875C66Bnoon
ehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
larry <noone@home.com> wrote:

>
> While not a net appliance, like a mac or windoze, it's easier to use than
> WinXP. For instance, updating all the installed software, all at once,
> is a matter of booting Application Manager, then clicking the Check for
> Updates button. The Linux hackers didn't like updating all the
> improvements, one at a time, so they developed a .sys file that stay in
> the update page. It automates the process even further, just updata the
> .sys file and it scripts the update....one click.

OK...so what did it take you to get to that point?

Much geeking around, no doubt.

People don't want their refrigerators to require constant attention or
extensive, careful setup.

larry

2008-01-27, 3:33 pm

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
2BE93F. 15050227012008@nntp1
.usenetserver.com:

> OK...so what did it take you to get to that point?
>
>

Enough of your trolling. I read the manual....

SMS

2008-01-27, 3:33 pm

Mark Crispin wrote:

> . iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N810 ($230 on
> Amazon) which has a miniSD slot expandable to 32GB, has more than
> twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so can be
> tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, has built-in
> GPS, has a keyboard, and is a completely open platform.

Where did you see the N810 on Amazon for $230?

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2008-01-27, 3:33 pm

In article < Xns9A329A9C07AF6noon
ehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
larry <noone@home.com> wrote:

>
> Enough of your trolling. I read the manual....

Trolling?

How thick is the manual? How many days did it take you to get your
tablet to where it is now? How many false starts did it take? How many
times did you screw it up and have to scrape load it?

This isn't 1975 anymore. People are willing to buy an appliance where
all that crap has been engineered out and useful stuff has been
engineered in.

There you are, using your SELLphone to browse the web on your N800 while
you sit at the Awful House, eyeballing the one waitress in the place who
has more than two teeth (I gather, anyway, because you referred to her
as "cute")...

larry

2008-01-27, 3:33 pm

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in news:479cebb8$0$8416
3
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> Mark Crispin wrote:
>
be[color=darkred]
>
> Where did you see the N810 on Amazon for $230?
>

Good thing this is usenet. If he said that on the net, itself, he might
have created panic!

Er, ah, if you see them for $230, I want one, too!

Mark Crispin

2008-01-27, 10:33 pm

Mark Crispin

2008-01-27, 10:33 pm

< 190120081824009753%m
itch@hawaii.rr> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801201023210.644@pangtzu.panda.com> < 260120081712294320%m
itch@hawaii.rr> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801262303290.21314@pangtzu.panda.com> < 479cebb8$0$84163$742
ec2ed@news.sonic.net>
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On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, SMS posted:
> Mark Crispin wrote:
> Where did you see the N810 on Amazon for $230?

You are correct and that was a typo. It's $420, not $230. $230 is the
N800 price.

IMHO, the N810 is overpriced at $420, especially given the $230 price for
the N800.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

larry

2008-01-27, 10:33 pm

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271807590.21314@pangtzu.panda.com:

> The contact manager on both N800 and iToy is nothing to write home
> about. iToy's contact manager is a little bit more functional (N800's
> is mostly aimed at working with Google Talk and Jabber) but only
> allows loading through iTunes and whatever iTunes will synchronize
> with. If your contacts are on a PC running Outlook but your media is
> on a Mac, you have to break synchronization with one to load from the
> other. N800 allows import of CSV files without requiring
> synchronizaton. iToy's contact manager doesn't handle name display
> well at all. Bottom line is that iToy and N800 both have annoying
> defects in the contact manager.
>
> N800 doesn't have a Nokia-supplied calendar, so iToy wins with that.
>
> Neither one have a task manager.
>

I don't know why you boys are so synchronizing with the N800. I never
use the N800 email or contact clients at all! That's why there's
rdesktop ported to the N800, right?

Why run 2 mailboxes and try to figure out where that email went, when
you can run your master computer from anyplace on the planet with
rdesktop on the N800 connected to Remote Desktop on the XP/Vista boxes
at home and have your whole system at your fingertips?!

Except for watching movies in realtime, for which it's too slow due to
upload bandwidth from the cable providers, I can use my email and usenet
clients from anywhere. No need to "sync" like an old Palm III at all.
Let your SERVER do the work...(c;

Besides, rdesktop is loads of fun, wherever you plop the tablet down....

If someone is showing you their Iphone, just boot up rdesktop and
doubleclick on the GOOGLE EARTH icon. You don't HAVE to tell 'em Google
EArth isn't running on the tablet. They can see it is!...(c;

"What operating system does this little Nokia run?"

"Well, you can choose. See if you boot it normally you get Linux. But,
if we push this button, watch it boot Windows XP.", you say trying not
to look too guilty. WinXP's full desktop appears, sans the naked ladies
on your home desktop, and all the icons explode onto the screen like a
booting winXP box. Look on their face? PRICELESS>..(c;

Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to a
MAC.

larry

2008-01-27, 10:33 pm

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271837080.21314@pangtzu.panda.com:

> You are correct and that was a typo. It's $420, not $230. $230 is the
> N800 price.
>
>

I guess I'd better call the girl at buy.com back and apologize....(c;

Damn....I wanted one for $230!

Mark Crispin

2008-01-27, 10:33 pm

< 190120081824009753%m
itch@hawaii.rr> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801201023210.644@pangtzu.panda.com> < 260120081712294320%m
itch@hawaii.rr> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801262303290.21314@pangtzu.panda.com> < 3vmdnUwFnJqlwgHanZ2d
nUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganew
s.com> < Xns9A3264DA02D3Fnoon
e
homecom@208.49.80.253>
<elmop-769E3A. 11080027012008@nntp1
.usenetserver.com> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271807590.21314@pangtzu.panda.com>
User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (OSX 917 2008-01-23)
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The following is my current scorecard of iToy vs. N800.

Cute/fashion statement: iToy
iToy also has packaging suitable for being presented to
Her Majesty The Queen at the Waldorf-Astoria. It makes
me think of those silly mints they leave on your pillow.

Music player: iToy
N800 can play more formats (and you can load lots of
other codecs), but the browser sucks far too much.

Movie player: N800
iToy has a better browser, but the inability to play other
formats (not even QuickTime!) and much video resolution
tips it to N800. Typically, you won't have as many movies
as you will songs, so the browser lossage isn't as much of
an issue.

External Video: iToy
iToy can output composite (NTSC or PAL) or component via
optional $50 cables. Although the cables are overpriced,
they do include a USB AC adapter. N800 doesn't have any
provision for external video at all.

Photo viewing: N800
The browser is still an issue, but photos appear washed
out and grainy on iToy compared to N800. Resolution
counts!!

Audio: N800
N800 has stereo speakers. iPhone just has the one, and
iPod Touch has none at all. Both have earphone jacks,
and both include el cheapo earphones (N800's is also a
microphone) that you'll immediately throw away and replace
with good ones.

Camera: tie (both suck)
N800 and iPhone both have a crummy camera. iPod Touch
has no camera at all. Last year, that camera may have
been alright, but today's crop of mobile phones have
MUCH better cameras.

YouTube: N800
iToy has smoother play while simultaneously loading the
video, but once loaded N800 plays equally smoothly
without the digital video artifacts on iToy (a side by
side comparison is helpful here). Also, the jerkiness on
YouTube playing on N800 is fixed in OS2008.

Other mobile media: N800, but only slightly
N800 supports web radio. N800 (but not N810) also has an
FM radio tuner. Neither N800, nor iToy, has a TV tuner;
I expect that will change in a few years once the dust
settles a bit on mobile digital TV. Japan especially has
numerous models of mobile phones with analog and 1seg
digital TV tuners.

Web browsing: N800
Once again, resolution counts. iToy's 320x480 is simply
inadequate for "the real web", and loss of 10% of the
screen for controls is a bad design bug. I tried the
special iToy web access at Starbucks (I have a preexisting
T-Mobile Wi-Fi account that I've used on the N800). It's
as if they went to special effort to make iToy *less*
usable (you don't get the same screen that you get with
other devices)!

Email: N800, with third-party software
Both vendor-supplied email tools suck, but on N800 you
can install other Linux email tools.

Contacts Manager: iToy
This was a tough call, since iToy's contacts manager isn't
at all good and you can't import contacts (you can only
synchronize through iTunes). But N800's contacts manager,
in spite of allowing import, is worse.

Calendar: iToy, by default
There really isn't any truly great Linux calendar tool.

Text input: N800
N800 gives you the choice of touch, stylus, or Bluetooth
keyboard input. iToy only lets you do touch. N810 also
offers a chiklet keyboard that is quite a bit better than
what you normally see.

Applets: N800
This was a tough call, since iToy has nice stock and
weather applets (basically the same as on Macintosh).
However, N800 has more vendor-supplied applets (including
FM radio and webcast applets) and lots of third party
applets since it's an open platform.

Market support: iToy
No question here. Nokia is simply not at all serious
about marketing N800 or N810 beyond its tiny niche.

CJK support: iToy
I say this with reluctance, since N800 has excellent
CJK support via third-party software. But it is
third-party software. Apple supplies CJK as part of
the base iToy software.

Applications: N800

Standing behind N800 is the entire body of Linux software,
plus a very active development community. If you believe
in Open Source, N800 is the only choice.

Downloading: N800
N800 permits its filesystem to be accessed via USB. iToy
only allows limited USB access and only via iTunes.

Expandability: N80
0
No question here, due to full Bluetooth, and two SDHC card
slots. N800 uses standard mini USB cables, unlike iToy
where you need a special overpriced cable.

Communications: N8
00
No question here. N800 has a full Bluetooth profile and
can talk to any Bluetooth mobile phone without lock to a
particular mobile phone provider or technology. You can't
do 3G on an iToy!

Vendor: N800
Once again, no choice. Apple actively attempts to block
people from modifying their iToys; Nokia encourages it
and hosts the community.

Good match for iToy: someone who values media playing above all else (and
doesn't need the storage of iPod Classic 160GB), only accesses email and
the web at remote (= no laptop or desktop at hand) locations for casual
use, and isn't interested in any third-party solutions.

Good match for N800: someone who does more than casual access to email and
web at remote locations, and wants to be able to build and/or install
third-party applications.

Good match for mylo: someone who wants good resolution and a keyboard, but
doesn't want to pay for an N810 and doesn't care about third-party
applications. I think this is a smaller market than either iToy or N800.

Enterprise users are not a good match for either device as they currently
stand. With considerable local development effort, N810 could be made
suitable for enterprise use (these guys really want a keyboard) but it
won't compete well with Blackberry.

Conclusion/observations:

Note that, with better screen resolution and an open platform, iToy would
be a clear winner. Most of the reasons why N800 wins boil down to these
two lacks on iToy.

There is really no reason for such tiny screen resolution on iToy. N800's
screen is only about 1/2 inch longer on the diagonal, yet is 800x480
compared to 320x480 on iToy.

I doubt very much that, even with the promised SDK, that iToy will be an
open platform, and this is iToy's Achilles' Heel. Why shouldn't you be
allowed to use a Bluetooth keyboard for text entry? Why shouldn't the
owner of the device be allowed to modify it to his heart's content?

Apple's obsession with control over their customers (and nickel and
dimeing them to death) ultimately makes their products much less
competitive than they would otherwise be.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mark Crispin

2008-01-27, 10:33 pm

larry

2008-01-28, 4:33 am

Load these freewares and compare again.....

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271842290.21314@pangtzu.panda.com:

> Music player: iToy
> N800 can play more formats (and you can load lots of
> other codecs), but the browser sucks far too much.

Not sure why you're using a browser to play music. Here, it's a tossup
between Canola 2, which was just upgraded and is VERY iPhoney acting,
and Kagu, which supports A2DP to my stereo BT headphones and scrobbling.

Canola 2 wins the pretty context. Kagu uses less resources. UKMP is
the most popular downloaded media player. It also front-ends for
mplayer (not Nokia media player) but I use mplayer, directly, for DivX
movies because the tablet sometimes is swamped playing full DivX
decoding and wide-screen rendering of fast moving scenes overloading it.
Any more unloading you do only enhances the beautiful movie play. Music
never overruns, even when Canola 2 is downloading artist photos, album
cover art and all the glitz off the net servers.

>
> Movie player: N800
> iToy has a better browser, but the inability to play other
> formats (not even QuickTime!) and much video resolution
> tips it to N800. Typically, you won't have as many movies
> as you will songs, so the browser lossage isn't as much of
> an issue.

mplayer, the smallest and lightest weight interface plays the most movie
formats, of all of them. IF the movie decoding/rendering isn't
overrunning the 333 Mhz ARM processor in the N800, using CANOLA 2 to
play the movie, especially the 4:3 format narrow movies, wins. Canola 2
forces the format to fill the wide screen of the tablet, beautifully,
unless the movie compression rate is just so high the DivX decoder sucks
up all the CPU cycles, making it into a fast slide show on the screen.
Already widescreen movies DivX or Xvid avis is best played with
mplayer's much simpler, very low overhead, interface. Movies downloaded
from alt.binaries.movies.divx, simply copied off the PC onto the 8GB
SDHC card and plugged into the tablet are simply beautiful.

> Audio: N800
> N800 has stereo speakers. iPhone just has the one, and
> iPod Touch has none at all. Both have earphone jacks,
> and both include el cheapo earphones (N800's is also a
> microphone) that you'll immediately throw away and replace
> with good ones.

N800's microphone is that tiny slit in the top just to the right of the
power/lock button on the top above the screen. No headphone plugging
necessary to get mic on Skype. Skype doesn't echo because you're using
the speakers at all, either.

N800 needs a digital audio COMPANDER, really bad. LOUD mp3 files play
at an acceptable volume, close, but not completely wide open. Divx
movies never have high volume levels, so many movies are just to soft to
hear unless you plug in the phones. N800 needs a PREAMP stage so the
volume controls don't need to be set as high as possible just to hear
most stuff. It's NEVER "too loud" on the tiny speakers.

>
> Camera: tie (both suck)
> N800 and iPhone both have a crummy camera. iPod Touch
> has no camera at all. Last year, that camera may have
> been alright, but today's crop of mobile phones have
> MUCH better cameras.

N800's is a pinhole webcam. Works OK in LIGHTED scenes for a webcam
ONLY. It's not a picture taker and never claimed to be. Hackers wrote
the "camera" app Nokia never intended. It's for Googletalk. Too bad
noone at Skype ever wrote a Skype interface for it....

>
> Other mobile media: N800, but only slightly
> N800 supports web radio. N800 (but not N810) also has an
> FM radio tuner. Neither N800, nor iToy, has a TV tuner;
> I expect that will change in a few years once the dust
> settles a bit on mobile digital TV. Japan especially has
> numerous models of mobile phones with analog and 1seg
> digital TV tuners.

ATSC digital television is NEVER going to work in a moving vehicle. I
have an ATSC USB TV plug for my laptop. The picture is BEAUTIFUL when
the car is at rest. AT 3mph, the picture LOCKS from the multipath
tearing up the codec with timing errors, even 1/2 mile from a 25MW (ERP)
channel 24 transmitter. Knowing several of the local TV engineers, I
asked them about it. They all agreed mobile TV from TV stations is
history when old NTSC is turned off. crappy TV video streamed over the
net, of course, works...if you can stand to watch it.

>
> Web browsing: N800
> Once again, resolution counts. iToy's 320x480 is simply
> inadequate for "the real web", and loss of 10% of the
> screen for controls is a bad design bug. I tried the
> special iToy web access at Starbucks (I have a preexisting
> T-Mobile Wi-Fi account that I've used on the N800). It's
> as if they went to special effort to make iToy *less*
> usable (you don't get the same screen that you get with
> other devices)!

I also think the revelation that iPhone cannot support high-resolution
stylus clicking on a crowded webpage full of links also trashes it web
browser usefulness. That capacitive screen I just found out about can't
pinpoint which link you're clicking so close together with any accuracy
using a finger.

> Calendar: iToy, by default
> There really isn't any truly great Linux calendar tool.

That was true a month ago, but Gnome Palmtop Environment (GPE) has been
ported to the new tablets in modules any user can download and install
from the GPE Suite he likes:
http://gpe.linuxtogo.org/

Here's the calendar module.
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2007/gpe-calendar/

The contacts module bears looking into, also.

The GPE suite of apps comes from:
http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2007/office-business/

Of course, if you'd rather use your favorite Palm OS apps, they run on
the tablet under Garnet VM:
http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/
Once booted, Garnet VM syncs with Palm Desktop just like any Palm OS
device...over the wifi link to your router...or over the net if you're
away. Just tell Palm Desktop's Hotsync to use Ethernet to look for it's
mate, not the IR or palm cable. Syncs perfectly to the same Palm
Desktop any Treo Palm phone uses.

There's yet another, maybe 2 now, PIM apps I've run across but can't
find quickly at the moment.

I don't fool with all this Palm Pilot nonsense. If I want to see my
contact list or other important document, I boot rdesktop and look it up
by remote control on the big computer at home, same with email and
usenet. One email client is all I can stomach, thanks.

>
> Text input: N800
> N800 gives you the choice of touch, stylus, or Bluetooth
> keyboard input. iToy only lets you do touch. N810 also
> offers a chiklet keyboard that is quite a bit better than
> what you normally see.

The Nokia BT keyboard really expands the text capability of the N8xx
tablets. Stylusing or finger typing on some virtual keyboard sucks for
a document like this message I'm typing on the BT keyboard over
rdesktop, here. I notice you left out, as I would because I don't like
it, the stylus writing to text input app the N800 comes with. It's a
toy to me, too.

The N810's thumb keyboard isn't for typist, either, like the BT
keyboards are. Typing a letter on a blackberry sucks.

>
> Applets: N800
> This was a tough call, since iToy has nice stock and
> weather applets (basically the same as on Macintosh).
> However, N800 has more vendor-supplied applets (including
> FM radio and webcast applets) and lots of third party
> applets since it's an open platform.

.....notably Simple Launcher, which adds desktop icons to launch
favorites, instead of the tree of program files of the GUI....
.....OMWeather for weather app. No need to boot it. Your weather is a
series of daily forecasts, each day in its own custom icon.....
.....Internet Radio applet, an extension of the Media Player that makes
listening to internet radio stations SO easy to access/point/click
without all the webpage spam to wade through to listen in.
.....the tray app that lets you see your memory usage and CPU loading, in
addition to adding a great screen snapshot with programmable delay.

>
> Applications: N800
> Standing behind N800 is the entire body of Linux software,
> plus a very active development community. If you believe
> in Open Source, N800 is the only choice.

Iphone? Apps?! Isn't that an oxymoron??

>
> Downloading: N800
> N800 permits its filesystem to be accessed via USB. iToy
> only allows limited USB access and only via iTunes.

N800 also allows its file system to be accessed over Bluetooth and can
access the file system of my MotoROKR Z6m SELLphone over Bluetooth from
its native file manager, which is designed to keep the common user OUT
of the system files.

>
> Expandability: N800
> No question here, due to full Bluetooth, and two SDHC card
> slots. N800 uses standard mini USB cables, unlike iToy
> where you need a special overpriced cable.
>
> Communications: N800
> No question here. N800 has a full Bluetooth profile and
> can talk to any Bluetooth mobile phone without lock to a
> particular mobile phone provider or technology. You can't
> do 3G on an iToy!

The WiMax N800 is coming soon....ready for Xeon deployment with its
Sprint partner...already setup.

>
> Enterprise users are not a good match for either device as they
> currently stand. With considerable local development effort, N810
> could be made suitable for enterprise use (these guys really want a
> keyboard) but it won't compete well with Blackberry.

Many new office apps are being ported from Linux to the N800/810 Maemo
Linux. Gnumeric spreadsheet is already ported and gives massive
spreadsheet ability to the little tablet in your pocket. It works well
with Excel files from the office system and may other formats.

Apiword (www.apiword.com) was just ported to the tablet, giving the
tablet a completely flexible on-the-road word processor to go with its
nice little Nokia (or other manufacturers) BT keyboards. Apiword is
every bit as good as Micro$oft Word for an enterprise user. It's also
ported and always free to MAC OSX, Linux and Windows users. They even
encourage you to give it away to others, a concept that may be hard to
grasp with such a fine WP on any device.

>
> Conclusion/observations:
>
>
> Apple's obsession with control over their customers (and nickel and
> dimeing them to death) ultimately makes their products much less
> competitive than they would otherwise be.
>

I think this has always been Apple's worst "feature"....corporate
control.

Someone FINALLY started a huge list of N770/800/810 SOFTWARE
REPOSITORIES, which has been somewhat of a problem finding off-Maemo-
based software developed for the tablets.
http://www.gronmayer.com/it/index.p...n&system=maemo3
Easy repository integration into N8xx Application Manager is a click of
the button if you see something of interest (assuming the other 127 apps
haven't run you completely out of memory, yet, of course).

Some repositories have lots of apps and libraries:

Maemo Hackers:
Package:
[main]
dropbear-client (v. 0.49-1mh3)
dropbear-server (v. 0.49-1mh3)
gammu (v. 1.08.00-1mh1bora1)
geoclue (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-examples (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-geocode-yahoo (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-map-yahoo (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-position-gpsd (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-position-hostip (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
geoclue-server-position-manual (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
libao-dev (v. 0.8.6-2mh1)
libao2 (v. 0.8.6-2mh1)
libgammu-dev (v. 1.08.00-1mh1bora1)
libgammu0 (v. 1.08.00-1mh1bora1)
libgcrypt11 (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgcrypt11-dbg (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgcrypt11-dev (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgcrypt11-doc (v. 1.2.3-2mh1)
libgeoclue-dev (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
libgeoclue0 (v. 0.2svn20070301-0mh1)
libgnomevfsutil-dev (v. 0.1.2)
libgnomevfsutil0 (v. 0.1.2)
libgnutls11 (v. 1.0.16-14mh1)
libgnutls11-dbg (v. 1.0.16-14mh1)
libgnutls11-dev (v. 1.0.16-14mh1)
libgpg-error-dev (v. 1.0-1mh1)
libgpg-error0 (v. 1.0-1mh1)
libgtksourceview1.0-0 (v. 1.4.2-1)
libgtksourceview1.0-dev (v. 1.4.2-1)
liblzo-dev (v. 1.08-3mh1)
liblzo1 (v. 1.08-3mh1)
libmeanwhile-dev (v. 1.0.2-1mh1)
libmeanwhile1 (v. 1.0.2-1mh1)
libncurses5 (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncurses5-dbg (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncurses5-dev (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncursesw5 (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncursesw5-dbg (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libncursesw5-dev (v. 5.5-1mh2)
libpcre3 (v. 6.7-1mh1)
libpcre3-dev (v. 6.7-1mh1)
libpcrecpp0 (v. 6.7-1mh1)
libsoup2.2-8 (v. 2.2.100-1mh3)
libsoup2.2-dev (v. 2.2.100-1mh3)
libsoup2.2-doc (v. 2.2.100-1mh3)
libtasn1-2 (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libtasn1-2-bin (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libtasn1-2-dbg (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libtasn1-2-dev (v. 0.2.17-1mh1)
libvte-common (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte-dev (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte-doc (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte4 (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
libvte4-dbg (v. 1:0.12.2-0mh5)
macchanger (v. 1.5.0-1)
maemo-blog (v. 0.1.8bora1)
maemo-gaim (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-data (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-dev (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-de (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-engb (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-es (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-fr (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-it (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-locale-ptbr (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-gadugadu (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-irc (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-jabber (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-meanwhile (v. 1.2.7-1mh2)
maemo-gaim-protocol-msn (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-napster (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-novell (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-oscar (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-yahoo (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
maemo-gaim-protocol-zephyr (v. 1.5.0-8bora1)
mh-shot-tool (v. 0.0.4bora1)
ncurses-base (v. 5.5-1mh2)
ncurses-bin (v. 5.5-1mh2)
ncurses-term (v. 5.5-1mh2)
nginx (v. 0.5.32-0mh1)
osso-statusbar-cpu (v. 0.6.0)
osso-xterm (v. 0.13.mh24bora1)
pcregrep (v. 6.7-1mh1)
php5-cli (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
php5-dev (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
php5-fastcgi (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
php5-fastcgi-dev (v. 5.2.4-0mh2)
php5-fastcgi-pear (v. 5.2.4-0mh2)
php5-pear (v. 5.2.4-0mh4)
quilt (v. 0.45-6mh1)
sgt-puzzles (v. 6844-2mh3)
ttf-bitstream-vera (v. 1.10-4mh1)
wordpress (v. 2.0.9-0mh1)

others specialize in one or two major apps like Maemo Mapper.

There's way too much software to run...(c;

LoSebal

2008-01-28, 4:33 am

In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801272002260.21314@pangtzu.panda.com>,
Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

>
>
> AFAIK, Mac has an rdesktop client but not a server.

you might want to let apple know http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

Mitch

2008-01-28, 4:33 am

In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271842290.21314@pangtzu.panda.com>,
Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

> Good match for iToy: someone who values media playing above all else (and
> doesn't need the storage of iPod Classic 160GB), only accesses email and
> the web at remote (= no laptop or desktop at hand) locations for casual
> use, and isn't interested in any third-party solutions.
>
> Good match for N800: someone who does more than casual access to email and
> web at remote locations, and wants to be able to build and/or install
> third-party applications.

The previous summary would have come off as nearly fair and reasonable
if you hadn't insisted on dumping that stupid "iToy" remark in every
other sentence.

Todd Allcock

2008-01-28, 4:33 am

At 28 Jan 2008 03:25:54 +0000 larry wrote:

> I don't know why you boys are so synchronizing with the N800. I never
> use the N800 email or contact clients at all! That's why there's
> rdesktop ported to the N800, right?

No, RD clients are for doing things the mobile device can't do- not things
they can!

> Why run 2 mailboxes and try to figure out where that email went,

That's why the Good Lord gaves us IMAP. You can run 50 e-mail clients on
50 different devices and they all have up to date identical inboxes, sent
items and saved folders, etc.

> when you can run your master computer from anyplace on the planet
> with rdesktop on the N800 connected to Remote Desktop on the XP/Vista
> boxes at home and have your whole system at your fingertips?!

Because it's a complete pain in the arse compared to just hitting
"send/receive" on a phone!

Todd Allcock

2008-01-28, 4:33 am

At 27 Jan 2008 19:53:47 -0800 Mark Crispin wrote:

> Market support: iToy
> No question here. Nokia is simply not at all serious
> about marketing N800 or N810 beyond its tiny niche.

I liked your comparison, and had little to add but this thought...

Since Nokia is the worldwide leader in mobile phones, why haven't they just
slapped an unlocked GSM phone module into the N800 and made an "N801"?
Even if phone use required a wired or bluetooth headset, it would complete
the unit's data connectivity options list, and they could market it against
the iPhone and HTC Advantage (HTC's large form-factor hi-res Windows Mobile
Tablet phone.)

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2008-01-28, 7:33 am

In article < Xns9A32E5A6DE280noon
ehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
larry <noone@home.com> wrote:

> Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to a
> MAC.

Firstly, it's Macintosh--or Mac for short. It's not MAC. MAC is media
access control. Just because the world capitalizes PC for personal
computer doesn't mean Mac is capitalized too.

Secondly, yes.

larry

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801272002260.21314@pangtzu.panda.com:

> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, larry posted:
never[color=darkred]

>
> The reason is access to contacts and calendar when you do not have
> Internet access or when the Internet access would be too costly (I
> wouldn't want to run rdesktop over anything slower than Wi-Fi).
>
> I also normally keep all incoming access to Windows machines closed
and
> locked down.
>
a[color=darkred]
>
> AFAIK, Mac has an rdesktop client but not a server.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/mrc
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
>

Oh, sorry. I guess it would serve a purpose on some systems that don't
have good coverage.

Remote Desktop on an odd port behind a router that logs all connects to
the port is quite safe, especially with the massive passwords I use..(c;

I've never had even a scan of this port number to the router for years.
You don't have to buy or worse yet, subscribe to some bogus remote
access software that's no better. It works great, especially over wifi,
but is acceptable over the poor delay times SELLular data delivers.
SELLular does make typing on rdesktop a little frustrating if you type
fast, as I do. It seems to send out one packet for each character, and
the packets arrive late, or duplicate themselves making several oooo's
when you only typed one. If you just slow down the typing, that all
stops. The latency on SELLular just makes it more challenging and they
tell me there's nothing they can do about it.

I do have access, however, even in the SC boondocks....(c;

Thanks for the MAC info. I bet you can RENT Mac access...(c;

larry

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

LoSebal <lsebal@well.com> wrote in news:lsebal-25BDB9.23002527012008@mpls-
nnrp-05.inet.qwest.net:

> http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

Unlimited Managed Systems edition: $499/administrator (MB423Z/A)

10 Managed Systems edition: $299/administrator (MB422Z/A)

Wow! Kinda pricey, even for MAC!

That's a little too much just to look at your email client by remote
control.....(sigh)

larry

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

LoSebal <lsebal@well.com> wrote in news:lsebal-25BDB9.23002527012008@mpls-
nnrp-05.inet.qwest.net:

> In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801272002260.21314@pangtzu.panda.com>,
> Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:
>
>
> you might want to let apple know http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/
>

I noticed on the Apple iPhone specifications page it says it supports
Bluetooth 2.0 + something else. Does it support the DUN profile so you can
connect the BT to someone ELSE's SELLphone DUN to get on a faster network
than 2G? BT 2.0 hauls XXX to an EVDO phone from the N800 tablet, but the
SELLphones have awful latency issues for some apps.

Can you connect an external DUN to the iPhone from, say, my tablet to use
the iPhone as a modem to ATT EDGE?

larry

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

Mitch <mitch@hawaii.rr> wrote in
news:270120082140543
092%mitch@hawaii.rr:

> In article <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271842290.21314@pangtzu.panda.com>,
> Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:
>
>
>
> The previous summary would have come off as nearly fair and reasonable
> if you hadn't insisted on dumping that stupid "iToy" remark in every
> other sentence.
>

Why? It's just another toy SELLphone, isn't it?

Is this like walking up to a Scientologist and saying Scientology is a
CULT, which really pisses them off?

larry

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

Todd Allcock < elecconnec@AmericaOn
Line.com> wrote in
news:SOgnj.957$5V5.516@fe119.usenetserver.com:

> Since Nokia is the worldwide leader in mobile phones, why haven't they
> just slapped an unlocked GSM phone module into the N800 and made an
> "N801"? Even if phone use required a wired or bluetooth headset, it
> would complete the unit's data connectivity options list, and they
> could market it against the iPhone and HTC Advantage (HTC's large
> form-factor hi-res Windows Mobile Tablet phone.)
>
>

Because the carriers wouldn't sell it unless they could prevent it from
working and hobble it all up...same as iPhones, smartphones, dumbphones and
everything else they sell....Nokia wouldn't stand for it under this
business model that was the best selling Amazon computer over Christmas
2007.

Todd Allcock

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

At 28 Jan 2008 17:06:37 +0000 larry wrote:

> Is this like walking up to a Scientologist and saying Scientology is a
> CULT, which really pisses them off?

Yeah but like the old joke a sks:

Q: What's the difference between a cult and a religion?

A: About a hundred years...

Todd Allcock

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

At 28 Jan 2008 17:09:07 +0000 larry wrote:

>
>
> Because the carriers wouldn't sell it unless they could prevent it from
> working and hobble it all up...same as iPhones, smartphones, dumbphones
> and everything else they sell....

To paraphrase the immortal Bard, "there is more in the cellular world,
Larry, than exists in your philosophy..."

You're letting your USA/CDMA preconceptions cloud your thinking again. If
they sold it "unlocked" any GSM customer could use it on any GSM network
worldwide. Outside of the US, it's not uncommon to buy unlocked phones.
The N95, Nokia's flagship phone of 2007, sold something like 200,000 units
before ANY carrier offered it. Not bad for a $600 (US) phone. The N800 is
a niche product anyway; selling a cellular version might widen the niche.
Look at Windows-based table PCs- they often are sold in both cellular-
enabled and non-cellular versions.

Selling a GSM-enhanced N800/810 is little different than offering a WiMax-
enhanced one, (except that more people could use a GSM version currently.)

> Nokia wouldn't stand for it under this
> business model that was the best selling Amazon computer over Christmas
> 2007.

The N800 was the best selling computer on Amazon for the same reason the MS
Zune was the best selling MP3 player- it was sold at a loss to clear
inventory for new models.

The N8xx series is probably not a wild success- most likely it's allowed to
stick around as long as it doesn't lose money in hopes that if the portable
web-tablet platform ever takes off, Nokia will be in good position to
exploit it.

larry

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

Todd Allcock < elecconnec@AmericaOn
Line.com> wrote in news:jJonj.2065$Zf6.57
@fe099.usenetserver.com:

> Yeah but like the old joke a sks:
>
> Q: What's the difference between a cult and a religion?
>
> A: About a hundred years...
>

Hmm...I was gonna guess "Politics"....

Great anti-Scientology videos on youtube they haven't been able to squash.

larry

2008-01-28, 12:33 pm

Todd Allcock < elecconnec@AmericaOn
Line.com> wrote in
news:kJonj.2066$Zf6.1405@fe099.usenetserver.com:

> The N8xx series is probably not a wild success- most likely it's
> allowed to stick around as long as it doesn't lose money in hopes that
> if the portable web-tablet platform ever takes off, Nokia will be in
> good position to exploit it.
>

Well, if it were a SELLphone, I would have never even considered buying it
at any price....

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm

In article < Xns9A337D7E46651noon
ehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
larry <noone@home.com> wrote:

>
>
> Because the carriers wouldn't sell it unless they could prevent it from
> working and hobble it all up...same as iPhones, smartphones, dumbphones and
> everything else they sell....

Including what they sold to you, which you bought willingly, and which
you use willingly?

Do you ever get tired of telling the world that you're a horse's XXX?

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm

In article < Xns9A338A44563FBnoon
ehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
larry <noone@home.com> wrote:

> Todd Allcock < elecconnec@AmericaOn
Line.com> wrote in
> news:kJonj.2066$Zf6.1405@fe099.usenetserver.com:
>
>
> Well, if it were a SELLphone, I would have never even considered buying it
> at any price....

Unlike the "SELLphone" that you did buy, right?

Steve Sobol

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.verizon.]
On 2008-01-28, larry <noone@home.com> wrote:
> LoSebal <lsebal@well.com> wrote in news:lsebal-25BDB9.23002527012008@mpls-
> nnrp-05.inet.qwest.net:
>
>
> Unlimited Managed Systems edition: $499/administrator (MB423Z/A)

VNC might be a better bet.

--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com
Geek-for-hire. Details: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevesobol

Todd Allcock

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm

At 28 Jan 2008 18:32:19 +0000 larry wrote:

> Well, if it were a SELLphone, I would have never even considered
> buying it at any price....

Well, I would've- so Nokia'd broken even on us!

Again, you shouldn't paint Nokia and GSM with the same brush you paint
Verizon and Alltel with. Many high-end Nokia phones are not "hobbled" in
any way, and even run real VoIP clients built-in to their OS that work over
WiFi or 3G. Are those "SELLphones" too?

Mark Crispin

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Todd Allcock posted:
> That's why the Good Lord gaves us IMAP. You can run 50 e-mail clients on
> 50 different devices and they all have up to date identical inboxes, sent
> items and saved folders, etc.

I may be many things, but I don't aspire to deityhood (and it was I who
gave the world IMAP...).

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mark Crispin

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Todd Allcock posted:
> Since Nokia is the worldwide leader in mobile phones, why haven't they just
> slapped an unlocked GSM phone module into the N800 and made an "N801"?

They wouldn't do it with the N800. It's not the right form factor for a
phone. They might do something like that with N810.

But I don't pretend to understand Nokia's marketing strategy for this
series. My impression is that N8x0 is a skunkworks effort that the rest
of Nokia doesn't really know what to do about.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Steve Sobol

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.cellular.verizon.]
On 2008-01-29, Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote:

> I may be many things, but I don't aspire to deityhood (and it was I who
> gave the world IMAP...).

OT: I'd consider you a deity if you could convince a bunch of big email client
vendors like M$ to fix their IMAP client implementations. :)

> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/mrc
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

--
Steve Sobol, Victorville, CA PGP:0xE3AE35ED www.SteveSobol.com
Geek-for-hire. Details: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevesobol

Mark Crispin

2008-01-28, 10:33 pm