Garmin GPS - C330 question RE: can't acquire satelites

Author

C330 question RE: can't acquire satelites

mwebsurfer

2007-09-06, 10:33 pm

I recently drove to New Jersey from Pennsylvania and had a problem
returning. I had no problem going to NJ, but when I keyed in "Go Home"
I could not get a fix on the satelites for at least 15 minutes until I
crossed the bridge to PA. I tried turning the GPS off and on several
times but it appeared to be locked on the initial setting.Is this normal
when going from one state to another? Or do I have a problem beginning
with my GPS?

Jack Erbes

2007-09-07, 7:33 am

mwebsurfer wrote:
> I recently drove to New Jersey from Pennsylvania and had a problem
> returning. I had no problem going to NJ, but when I keyed in "Go Home"
> I could not get a fix on the satelites for at least 15 minutes until I
> crossed the bridge to PA. I tried turning the GPS off and on several
> times but it appeared to be locked on the initial setting.Is this normal
> when going from one state to another? Or do I have a problem beginning
> with my GPS?

If you move GPS receiver some distance, like maybe 50-100 miles or so or
more, when you turn it back on it needs extra time to refresh or replace
a collection of data that is called the "almanac". That is the data the
the GPS receiver uses to determine its position relative to the
satellites that are seen.

So if you leave a receiver off a long time a capacitor that backs up the
almanac will bleed down and it will forget the almanac info. And if you
move it while it is off it will invalidate the almanac. Then it might
take as long as 15-30 minutes for it to determine its location on startup.

If it is moving when it is turned on that will add to the time needed.

And the poorer the sky view it has (like in a car with a not great
"view" of the sky) the longer it will take.

So if you can put the receiver in a open area and have it not moving it
should get a fix quicker. And if the receiver has a "localize" option
you can tell it or point out your approximate location and that will
speed up the process.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

GeorgeB

2007-09-07, 10:33 am

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:24:29 GMT, mwebsurfer <mwebsurfer@verizon.net>
wrote:

>I recently drove to New Jersey from Pennsylvania and had a problem
>returning. I had no problem going to NJ, but when I keyed in "Go Home"
>I could not get a fix on the satelites for at least 15 minutes until I
>crossed the bridge to PA. I tried turning the GPS off and on several
>times but it appeared to be locked on the initial setting.Is this normal
>when going from one state to another? Or do I have a problem beginning
>with my GPS?

I have run into a similar problem with my 330 that occurs in 2 places,
northern Virginai and central South Carolina ... always, so far, while
driving south.

It is my OPINION that the car roof/tinted windshield is blocking a
little too much of the sky where I need a signal. I did note that
turning WAAS off seems to help, but I cannot support that with facts.

I see that the recent firmware undate from Garmin addresses this; I've
not loaded it yet.

Changes made from version 5.50 to 5.70:
* Improved satellite acquisition.

George

Alan White

2007-09-07, 12:33 pm

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:59:36 -0400, Jack Erbes <jackerbes@adelphia.net>
wrote:

>So if you leave a receiver off a long time a capacitor that backs up the
>almanac will bleed down and it will forget the almanac info.

Not really; it has nothing to do with discharging capacitors. It's
simply that the stored almanac becomes outdated and the current almanac
has to be download at the next switch-on.

>And if you
>move it while it is off it will invalidate the almanac.

You have to move it more than 300 miles.

>Then it might
>take as long as 15-30 minutes for it to determine its location on startup.

....while it downloads the new almanac and locks on to the visible
satellites. This takes at least 12.5 minutes.

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.gt-britain.co.uk/weather

Jeffrey Kaplan

2007-09-07, 3:33 pm

It is alleged that Jack Erbes claimed:

> So if you leave a receiver off a long time a capacitor that backs up the

How long is "a long time"? 30 minutes? An hour? Overnight? A week?

> almanac will bleed down and it will forget the almanac info. And if you
> move it while it is off it will invalidate the almanac. Then it might
> take as long as 15-30 minutes for it to determine its location on startup.

If my GPS took that long to acquire its position, I'd return it as
defective. Current units advertise a cold-start acquisition time of
under 5 minutes, good ones advertise under 2 minutes. A cold start of
+my+ c330 generally takes about 2 minutes, a warm start takes less than
30 seconds.

> If it is moving when it is turned on that will add to the time needed.

Not that I've noticed.

> And the poorer the sky view it has (like in a car with a not great
> "view" of the sky) the longer it will take.

If the OP was on I-76, he had a clear view of the sky. And why would
it work in one direction, but not the other over the same road?

The only things I can think of that might cause this is problems with
the satellites themselves (unlikely) or atmospheric conditions. Put
away those aluminum beanies, attempts at weather control are real and
some of the methods used involve releasing metallic dust in the upper
atmosphere. This would cause problems with satellite reception.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol

If I Am Ever the Sidekick... 19. I will not wear a red shirt when
beaming down to a planet.

Frank Tabor

2007-09-07, 10:33 pm

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:44:47 -0400, GeorgeB <nospam@att.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:24:29 GMT, mwebsurfer <mwebsurfer@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>I have run into a similar problem with my 330 that occurs in 2 places,
>northern Virginai and central South Carolina ... always, so far, while
>driving south.
>
>It is my OPINION that the car roof/tinted windshield is blocking a
>little too much of the sky where I need a signal. I did note that
>turning WAAS off seems to help, but I cannot support that with facts.
>
>I see that the recent firmware undate from Garmin addresses this; I've
>not loaded it yet.
>
>Changes made from version 5.50 to 5.70:
> * Improved satellite acquisition.
>
>George

I've noticed the same problems while on the eastern seaboard headed
south. I also have a 330, but the same problem occurs on my Magellan
Color and the Delorme Earthmate when placed in similar positions on
the dashboard.
--
Frank Tabor

Jack Erbes

2007-09-08, 7:33 am

Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
> It is alleged that Jack Erbes claimed:
>
>
> How long is "a long time"? 30 minutes? An hour? Overnight? A week?
>

More like days and weeks. Many of us have found GPS receivers to "go
stupid" and need extra time at a startup after longer periods of
storage. I'm not going to argue the specifics of the capacitors or
whatever or however the almanac is backed up or stored. But other
things I have read and my basic understanding of electronics is that if
you have data stored in volatile memory it has to have to power there or
it will lose it.

> If my GPS took that long to acquire its position, I'd return it as
> defective. Current units advertise a cold-start acquisition time of
> under 5 minutes, good ones advertise under 2 minutes. A cold start of
> +my+ c330 generally takes about 2 minutes, a warm start takes less than
> 30 seconds.

I was speaking in generalities and of receivers I've used over the last
10 years of so. The newer receivers are much faster on a startup. Cold
and warm are not well defined by the makers and sellers, they all want
to present the most favorable numbers.

I think, but am not certain, that the cold start times advertised do not
necessarily imply the presence or absence of a usable almanac. And a
warm start probably means a recent and usable almanac. But the details
are not explained. If there is no almanac or if it it cannot be used,
it will take longer. It is that simple.

If you C330 has an initialization choice at startup, try entering or
pointing to your approximate location and see how long it takes to get a
fix. I think (but am not certain) that if you initialize it like that
it will not use the almanac that may be there. Then tomorrow just turn
it on and see how long it takes. That would be two different kinds of
cold starts, no?

A warm start will find some or all of the same satellites near where
they where before it was shut down, it will find itself near where it
last was, all the pieces of the puzzle fall into place quickly.

If you have a unit that shows the EPE on the startup page notice how
quickly and dramatically the EPE value will fall after it shows a fix.
That is the process of it steadily updating the almanac and improving
the results.

>
> Not that I've noticed.

On a warm start it will be hardly noticeable. Try getting in your car,
get a distance (a mile or two) from your shut down/starting location and
turn it on while moving at a fair and steady speed, like 35-50 MPH. I
always see a little more delay when I do that on both my older
StreetPilot 2610 and my newer GPSMap 76Cx. The latter is much quicker
of course.

>
> If the OP was on I-76, he had a clear view of the sky. And why would
> it work in one direction, but not the other over the same road?

The metal in the roof of the car, metallic coatings on the windshield
and not on the side and rear windows, the amount of metal in the sky
view, the presence of tall buildings or trees, the car's attitude
relative to the satellites, etc. There are several variables that can
change the receptions. If you watch the satellite page the signal
strength bars will change height and birds will be lost and gained as
you drive and those are the kind of things that cause it.

> The only things I can think of that might cause this is problems with
> the satellites themselves (unlikely) or atmospheric conditions. Put
> away those aluminum beanies, attempts at weather control are real and
> some of the methods used involve releasing metallic dust in the upper
> atmosphere. This would cause problems with satellite reception.

You are right, atmospheric and ionospheric conditions can affect the
reception of signals. I think those are less of a factor than your
immediate surrounds though.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Alan White

2007-09-08, 10:33 am

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 08:30:08 -0400, Jack Erbes <jackerbes@adelphia.net>
wrote:

>I'm not going to argue the specifics of the capacitors or
>whatever or however the almanac is backed up or stored. But other
>things I have read and my basic understanding of electronics is that if
>you have data stored in volatile memory it has to have to power there or
>it will lose it.

You're quite right. I made the assumption that the batteries weren't
removed.

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.gt-britain.co.uk/weather

2007-09-08, 10:33 am

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:43:26 -0400, Frank Tabor <ftabor@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:44:47 -0400, GeorgeB <nospam@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> I've noticed the same problems while on the eastern seaboard headed
> south. I also have a 330, but the same problem occurs on my Magellan
> Color and the Delorme Earthmate when placed in similar positions on
> the dashboard.

On a recent trip around the US, I had my C320 lose sat. recepttion a few
times and it would not lock on until it cooled down;20 mins or so with a/c
blowing over it. I am almost sure it was due to overheating as I had it
suction cup to windshield or sitting on the dash in direct sun. The unit
was very hot to touch. After placing the C320 down on the center console
out of the sun, and after the unit cooled down, it worked fine. It also
worked fine first thing in the morning when starting out for the day's
trip. But after the sun got high and hitting on the gps, it started
losing it.
While driving in the desert of AZ last April, it lost sat reception and
would not regain it. I pulled out my old GPS12MAP and turned it on. The
GPS12MAP locked on right away, so I don't think it was sat. position or
outages.
YMMV.
MR

Jeffrey Kaplan

2007-09-08, 12:33 pm

It is alleged that Jack Erbes claimed:

> More like days and weeks. Many of us have found GPS receivers to "go
> stupid" and need extra time at a startup after longer periods of
> storage. I'm not going to argue the specifics of the capacitors or
> whatever or however the almanac is backed up or stored. But other
> things I have read and my basic understanding of electronics is that if
> you have data stored in volatile memory it has to have to power there or
> it will lose it.

Last week, I intentionally ran the battery down by telling it to run on
batteries after unplugging it. Didn't take any longer to start up when
I plugged it back in two days later.

The longest I've left it off is three days, and there is no discernable
difference to acquisition time when compared to a single overnight.
Granted, it's not the week or so you said...

> If you C330 has an initialization choice at startup, try entering or

It does not.

> pointing to your approximate location and see how long it takes to get a
> fix. I think (but am not certain) that if you initialize it like that

Why should I even have to tell my GPS where I am? That's backwards. I
got a GPS to tell me where I am, and how to get to where I'm going.

> If you have a unit that shows the EPE on the startup page notice how

I don't even know what that means.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol

"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary,
in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, may justly be
pronounced the very definition of tyranny." - James Madison, The
Federalist Papers

Frank Tabor

2007-09-08, 3:33 pm

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:32:27 -0400, Jeffrey Kaplan <nomail@gordol.org>
wrote:

>
>
>Why should I even have to tell my GPS where I am? That's backwards. I
>got a GPS to tell me where I am, and how to get to where I'm going.

My Magellan Color, (handheld) will find it's place much more quickly
from a cold start if I tell it what state I'm in. It takes about 2
minutes. Without Initializing it may take 5 minutes or so. It has to
wait for the almanac to be broadcast.
--
Frank Tabor

Dan Anderson

2007-09-08, 3:33 pm

Jack Erbes wrote:
> Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
>
> More like days and weeks. Many of us have found GPS receivers to "go
> stupid" and need extra time at a startup after longer periods of
> storage. I'm not going to argue the specifics of the capacitors or
> whatever or however the almanac is backed up or stored. But other
> things I have read and my basic understanding of electronics is that if
> you have data stored in volatile memory it has to have to power there or
> it will lose it.

The almanac is stored in flash memory so no power is needed for that.

The clock needs power to keep running. If you take the batteries out
or if they die the clock will be wrong and the receiver will have
to do a more general search to find the satellite signals. This
can be one of the factors that slow down the process.

--
Dan
(email change 2001 to 2004)
(www.gpsmap.net)

Jack Erbes

2007-09-08, 3:33 pm

Frank Tabor wrote:
<snip>
> My Magellan Color, (handheld) will find it's place much more quickly
> from a cold start if I tell it what state I'm in. It takes about 2
> minutes. Without Initializing it may take 5 minutes or so. It has to
> wait for the almanac to be broadcast.

Thanks for the clue Frank.

I am not that interested in exactly how GPS works, more in using GPS in
day to day life. But your mention of "has to wait for the almanac to be
broadcast" jogged my memory of previous readings. I had forgotten what
little I knew about that. Here are links to some more reading on it
that may be helpful to the OP:

http://gpsinformation.net/main/almanac.txt

http://gpsinformation.net/main/gpslock.htm

It seems like, as always, if you just go back to what I think of as the
"Joe, Jack, and Dale" page all the answers are there.

Jack

Frank Tabor

2007-09-08, 10:33 pm

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:31:46 -0400, Jack Erbes <jacker@midmaine.com>
wrote:

>Frank Tabor wrote:
><snip>
>
>Thanks for the clue Frank.
>
>I am not that interested in exactly how GPS works, more in using GPS in
>day to day life. But your mention of "has to wait for the almanac to be
>broadcast" jogged my memory of previous readings. I had forgotten what
>little I knew about that. Here are links to some more reading on it
>that may be helpful to the OP:
>
>http://gpsinformation.net/main/almanac.txt
>
>http://gpsinformation.net/main/gpslock.htm
>
>It seems like, as always, if you just go back to what I think of as the
>"Joe, Jack, and Dale" page all the answers are there.
>
>Jack

I think this one paragraph from the second URL explains why the Unit
occasionally takes so long to lock in .

In this thread, people also questioned the absolute cold-start,
factory
default, receiver is totally stupid, etc. reset times. If the almanac
has
been erased, each GPS satellite sends down approximate, abbreviated
satellite orbital elements called the almanac data. A complete almanac
set
takes 25 of the 30 second message blocks, i.e. 12.5 minutes, to be
sent.
Also in the completely stupid, cold-start mode the Garmin receivers
seem
to assume that the position is invalid as well as the almanac data, so
it
begins searching for PRN1, PRN2 .... all the way up to PRN32 trying to
find the first 3 usable satellites. This wide search can take 20
minutes
or more.
--
Frank Tabor

Jeffrey Kaplan

2007-09-08, 10:33 pm

It is alleged that Jeffrey Kaplan claimed:

> It does not.

I partially retract that.

While in a parking structure tonight, I plugged my c330 in. After a
few minutes, while waiting in the line of cars to exit, my unit asked
if I were indoors. I said "no" and it then asked me if I were (still)
in New Hampshire (yes) and then if the current date was still Sept 8
(it was).

Then I was close enough to the exit for it to achieve signal lock.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol

"If I am ever the Hero top 100 list: #74. If my trusty sidekick always
blurts out the fact that I am carrying the most powerful magic object
in the world, then I will get a sidekick who is less of a blabbermouth.

willshak

2007-09-09, 10:33 am

on 9/6/2007 9:24 PM mwebsurfer said the following:
> I recently drove to New Jersey from Pennsylvania and had a problem
> returning. I had no problem going to NJ, but when I keyed in "Go Home"
> I could not get a fix on the satelites for at least 15 minutes until I
> crossed the bridge to PA. I tried turning the GPS off and on several
> times but it appeared to be locked on the initial setting.Is this normal
> when going from one state to another? Or do I have a problem beginning
> with my GPS?

I had nothing to say about this subject until yesterday afternoon.
Driving 6 miles to a supermarket which I frequent on a regular basis,
the Garmin c340 was working fine, as usual. After leaving the
supermarket 30 minutes later, and on my way home, the Garmin could not
find a satellite for about 10 minutes. I have an external antenna for
the Garmin mounted on my roof.
I have no idea why, but it was kinda overcast with some heavy dark
clouds, and sunshine was getting through in some places.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Jack Erbes

2007-09-09, 10:33 pm

Dan Anderson wrote:
<snip>
> The clock needs power to keep running. If you take the batteries out
> or if they die the clock will be wrong and the receiver will have
> to do a more general search to find the satellite signals. This
> can be one of the factors that slow down the process.

GPS receivers get the time from the satellites, they don't have clocks
in them.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Alan White

2007-09-10, 4:33 am

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:27:34 -0400, Jack Erbes <jackerbes@adelphia.net>
wrote:

>GPS receivers get the time from the satellites, they don't have clocks
>in them.

Sorry, Jack, but they do, otherwise the receiver couldn't display time
before acquisition or when in 'indoor' mode. The receiver clock
synchronises with the satellite clock after acquisition. Before
synchronisation I've observed a discrepancy of several minutes if the
receiver hasn't been used for some time.

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.gt-britain.co.uk/weather

Happy Trails

2007-09-10, 4:33 am

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:27:34 -0400, Jack Erbes
<jackerbes@adelphia.net> wrote:

>Dan Anderson wrote:
><snip>
>
>GPS receivers get the time from the satellites, they don't have clocks
>in them.
>
>Jack

Wouldn't do them much good having an almanac to know which sats to
track if they didn't know what the time and date was.

alfred

2007-09-12, 10:33 pm

Hello,

I tried using my new c330 to connect to satellites and this is the
information I found:

Morning startup while car is parked = 22 seconds
Warm startup while car is parked = Immediate
Morning startup while car is parked but in a different place than home
location = 30 seconds
Morning startup while driving = 40 seconds

Al

Jack Erbes

2007-09-23, 10:33 am

Jack Erbes wrote:

<snip>
> GPS receivers get the time from the satellites, they don't have clocks
> in them.
>

Thanks to all for correcting me on that. I want to go on record as
acknowledging that GPS receivers have clocks in them.

I worked for some years in places where we had free running counters
with displays that were used to display time and we also had clocks that
told us what the time was. Those were different things and that
probably flavors my thinking a little.

I think of the clock in a GPS receiver as being a little different than
the other clocks in my life. I consider it more like something that
gets the correct time, displays it, and then keeps track of and displays
the approximate time until it can be updated again.

Jack

Happy Trails

2007-09-23, 10:33 am

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:08:23 -0400, Jack Erbes <jacker@midmaine.com>
wrote:

>Jack Erbes wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>Thanks to all for correcting me on that. I want to go on record as
>acknowledging that GPS receivers have clocks in them.
>

Jack,

In order to fully understand just how out of whack your statement was,
you should review the basics of how a gps receiver calculates a
position estimate using the travel time of radio signals from
satellites to the receiver. How could it possibly time a signal
without some sort of clock?

utilsea@aol.com

2007-09-23, 10:33 pm

About the clock inside your GPS unit.
There is two clock inside all GPS unit.

The first one is a time keeper to get date and time and is generally
powered by a lithium battery or something similar.
This explain why you can remove the battery from your receiver without
any strange effect lost of date...).
This one is used at startup to get time an date necessary (with the
alm) to track satellite.
Almanach (alm) are valid for about 20 days but in combination with
date, time and alm GPS require alos an approximative position (the
latest computed) to start satellites tracking.This explain why when
you move your GPS of more than 200kms this one need a longer time to
get the first position (a good receiver offer the possibility to input
this approximative position and date/time).

The second clock is a 10 or 20mhz oscillator (but what is an
osclillator if it's not clock :-) required to get the synchonisation
and receive the signal. This one is powered by your battery, a wrong
adjustement of this one (some Hz) will avoid the gps tracking.
Like all accurate oscillator this one is very sensitive to temperature
and I think that after a tour in a supermaket with the car parked
under hard sun will not help this poor oscillator ;-) and can explain
the diffulty to get a position.

Utilsea
http://utilsea.free.fr

Happy Trails

2007-09-23, 10:33 pm

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:30:30 -0700, utilsea@aol.com wrote:

>About the clock inside your GPS unit.
>There is two clock inside all GPS unit.
>

What was your question?

utilsea@aol.com

2007-09-23, 10:33 pm

On 24 sep, 01:11, Happy Trails <nom...@myplace.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:30:30 -0700, util...@aol.com wrote:
>
> What was your question?

Not a question.

Jack Erbes

2007-09-23, 10:33 pm

Happy Trails wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:08:23 -0400, Jack Erbes <jacker@midmaine.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Jack,
>
> In order to fully understand just how out of whack your statement was,
> you should review the basics of how a gps receiver calculates a
> position estimate using the travel time of radio signals from
> satellites to the receiver. How could it possibly time a signal
> without some sort of clock?

I understand how GPS works. You know very little about clocks.

If you'll notice, when I said that GPS receivers don't have a clock I
prefaced that with the statement that GPS receivers get the time from
the satellites. Doesn't that imply that I knew that the time was there
and necessary for and used for navigation purposes?

So what I said was wrong, illogical, contradictory, or however you might
want to view it. The world calls that a clock, so I'll admit that GPS
receiver have a clock.

You have been harping on part of what I said with it out of context.
And after you brought it up again in another thread, I went back and
acknowledged that what I said was wrong. If the world wants to call
that a clock, I'm fine with that.

Did you know that GPS time is wrong? That it is now 14 seconds fast?
And that, as sent, the time needs to be corrected and converted to
display something that will make sense and be correct for a human that
wants to know the time of day?

I've worked with clocks and timing in a variety of ways in my life. I
see things that you might want to call a clock and might think of them
as timepieces, counters, timers, or some other kind of control mechanism.

If you consider me to be whacked out or silly for having said that GPS
receivers do not have clocks, I consider you to be just a silly for
calling something that does not announce the time acoustically a clock.
Read the opening definition here if you miss my point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock

Jack

Happy Trails

2007-09-24, 7:33 am

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:03:38 -0400, Jack Erbes <jacker@midmaine.com>
wrote:

>You have been harping on part of what I said with it out of context.
>And after you brought it up again in another thread,

You brought it up again here, not me.

I never mentioned you specifically in the other thread - it must have
been your guilty conscience at work.

But you don't have to worry your poor wee head, I won't mention it
again (until you do!).

Bad Idea

2007-09-24, 12:33 pm

Jack Erbes wrote:
>
> I'm not going to argue the specifics of the capacitors or
> whatever or however...

That's the smartest thing you've posted yet.

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