Garmin GPS - Garmin MAP transferring is dog slow

Author

Garmin MAP transferring is dog slow

Joel

2008-02-16, 10:33 am

I don't have any need to transfer the mao from computer to the 8GB SDHC
Class-6 memory card, but 1-1/2 day ago I give it a try... and man, it's much
slower than I have expected.

After around 36 hrs transferring from hard drive to Card Reader and it's
only 65% done. And because it uses nearly 90-98% of CPU which causes
slowness to the whole system, so in the first 24 hrs I lower the Priority to
"Below Normal" in order to run other aps, then switched back to "Normal"
about 12 hrs ago which helps to speed thing up a little but not much.

Why MapSource is too slow is beyond me, I have been using computer for
around 3 decades and this is the very first time I run into this dog slow.

I am running WinXP, AMD 4800 (around 2.4Ghz) and 3G memory, and using
Memory Card reader by Transcend.

Jack Erbes

2008-02-16, 10:33 am

Joel wrote:
> I don't have any need to transfer the mao from computer to the 8GB SDHC
> Class-6 memory card, but 1-1/2 day ago I give it a try... and man, it's much
> slower than I have expected.
>

What are you doing? Tell us some more details.

Have you selected some map segments in MapSource and are uploading them
to the card in a reader?

If so, how many maps (segments) were selected (the figures are at the
bottom of the Maps tab)?

What is the total size of the selected maps?

What products were the maps selected from?

Tell us all that and we can probably tell you what the problem is. The
behavior you are seeing is not normal.

Also, last I knew, Garmins had a limit of 2 GB or 4 GB on SDHC cards.
That limit seems to vary with the GPS model involved and the version of
MapSource you are using.

You might want to call Garmin at 1 800 800 1020 and see if the tech
folks can confirm that your card is okay for the use you intend.

Jack

Joel

2008-02-16, 3:33 pm

Jack Erbes < jackerbes@roadrunner
.com> wrote:

> Joel wrote:
>
> What are you doing? Tell us some more details.

I just select the whole Garmin Topo 2008 and tell MapSource to save to a
memory card from memory card reader. Just ONE MAP.

> Have you selected some map segments in MapSource and are uploading them
> to the card in a reader?
____________________
____________________
____________________
___________________
After around 36 hrs transferring from hard drive to Card Reader and it's
only 65% done. And because it uses nearly 90-98% of CPU which causes
slowness to the whole system, so in the first 24 hrs I lower the Priority to
"Below Normal" in order to run other aps, then switched back to "Normal"
about 12 hrs ago which helps to speed thing up a little but not much.

Why MapSource is too slow is beyond me, I have been using computer for
around 3 decades and this is the very first time I run into this dog slow.

I am running WinXP, AMD 4800 (around 2.4Ghz) and 3G memory, and using
Memory Card reader by Transcend.
====================
====================
=======

> If so, how many maps (segments) were selected (the figures are at the
> bottom of the Maps tab)?

It's just a test so I don't pay much attention to the segments, but it
says something about 3.xGB of data

> What is the total size of the selected maps?

About 3.xGB of data (probably around 3.3GB?)

> What products were the maps selected from?

Because unlike City Navigator, MetroGuide etc. I can't select the BLOCK
(segments) one by one, so I selected the whole thing (USA). And I selected
using MapSource of course (as I mentioned in the original message).

> Tell us all that and we can probably tell you what the problem is. The
> behavior you are seeing is not normal.
>
> Also, last I knew, Garmins had a limit of 2 GB or 4 GB on SDHC cards.
> That limit seems to vary with the GPS model involved and the version of
> MapSource you are using.
>
> You might want to call Garmin at 1 800 800 1020 and see if the tech
> folks can confirm that your card is okay for the use you intend.

I may try again, probably City Navigator 2008 see if it will make any
difference.

BTW, I have transferred smaller segments (around 2 states) to 128MB data
card and it won't take more than 20-25 mins. But 74% for almost 48 hrs is
way too much.

And it eats lot of CPU resource too (looking at the Task Manager). It
just doesn't sound right.

> Jack

JCE

2008-02-16, 10:33 pm

Hi,

that won't work. There is a 2025(+/-) map file limit. You need to select
fewer Topo maps. I believe the whole TOPO 2008 has about 6000+ map parts.

Maybe Jack can explain it a bit better.

JCE

"Joel" <Joel@NoSpam.plz> wrote in message
news:9eker3dvdufkjtt
etoe7l9c0mt3qhaddeg@
4ax.com...[color=darkred]
> Jack Erbes < jackerbes@roadrunner
.com> wrote:
>
>
> I just select the whole Garmin Topo 2008 and tell MapSource to save to a
> memory card from memory card reader. Just ONE MAP.
>
> ____________________
____________________
____________________
___________________
> After around 36 hrs transferring from hard drive to Card Reader and it's
> only 65% done. And because it uses nearly 90-98% of CPU which causes
> slowness to the whole system, so in the first 24 hrs I lower the Priority
> to
> "Below Normal" in order to run other aps, then switched back to "Normal"
> about 12 hrs ago which helps to speed thing up a little but not much.
>
> Why MapSource is too slow is beyond me, I have been using computer for
> around 3 decades and this is the very first time I run into this dog slow.
>
> I am running WinXP, AMD 4800 (around 2.4Ghz) and 3G memory, and using
> Memory Card reader by Transcend.
> ====================
====================
=======
>
>
> It's just a test so I don't pay much attention to the segments, but it
> says something about 3.xGB of data
>
>
> About 3.xGB of data (probably around 3.3GB?)
>
>
> Because unlike City Navigator, MetroGuide etc. I can't select the BLOCK
> (segments) one by one, so I selected the whole thing (USA). And I
> selected
> using MapSource of course (as I mentioned in the original message).
>
>
> I may try again, probably City Navigator 2008 see if it will make any
> difference.
>
> BTW, I have transferred smaller segments (around 2 states) to 128MB data
> card and it won't take more than 20-25 mins. But 74% for almost 48 hrs is
> way too much.
>
> And it eats lot of CPU resource too (looking at the Task Manager). It
> just doesn't sound right.
>

Jack Erbes

2008-02-16, 10:33 pm

Joel wrote:
<snip>
>
> I just select the whole Garmin Topo 2008 and tell MapSource to save to a
> memory card from memory card reader. Just ONE MAP.
>

The problem is probably that you have too many maps or segments selected.

There is an undocumented limit on the number of map segments that can
processed and uploaded from MapSource. The maximum is 2,025 segments.
If you selected all of Topo 2008 I think you have selected something
like 6,600 segments, no?

I have the previous version, it was called U.S. Topo. But I think Topo
2008 has the same number of segments in it as did U.S. Topo.

My version has the topo mapping divided into four regions, East, West,
Alaska, and Hawaii. East and West have more than 2,500 segments each,
Alaska has about 1,500, and Hawaii has less than thirty.

Regardless of how the segments are grouped in Topo 2008, you cannot
upload more than 2,025 at a time. And when you try to do it the process
slows down grossly and might not even ever finish. If it does finish
the map file might not work in the GPS. If it does work in the GPS it
will not have all the segments you selected in it.

<snip>
>
> It's just a test so I don't pay much attention to the segments, but it
> says something about 3.xGB of data

Well, I guess maybe you going to have to start. If I select all the
segments in my version it totals out to 6,639 maps totaling 1,795.8 MB.

How many maps and what size does Topo 2008 total out to? If the size
has nearly doubled they must have added a lot of stuff to it.

> Because unlike City Navigator, MetroGuide etc. I can't select the BLOCK
> (segments) one by one, so I selected the whole thing (USA). And I selected
> using MapSource of course (as I mentioned in the original message).

Why can't you select them one by one? Maybe there is something about
Topo 2008 I don't understand.

<snip>

> I may try again, probably City Navigator 2008 see if it will make any
> difference.

City Navigator only has about 350 segments, or 50 if you have the NT
version. U.S. Topo is the only mapping that maxes out over the 2,025
limit.

To travel with all the topo mapping you have to divide it up onto more
than one microSD card. Or use one of the other workarounds to beat the
2,025 limit.

> BTW, I have transferred smaller segments (around 2 states) to 128MB data
> card and it won't take more than 20-25 mins. But 74% for almost 48 hrs is
> way too much.

You're right. I learned it the hard way too. It is one of the rites of
passage for using MapSource. Garmin is not renowned for having
excellent documentation or excellent software either one. The only
things that are less excellent than those are their product pages. A
decidedly most unexcellent company on the whole. But they make pretty
good GPS receivers.

Jack

tnom@mucks.net

2008-02-16, 10:33 pm

Keep going. Some of the new Garmins have no limit on the size of
the SD card. If the 2000 segment limit is in tact with your version of
Mapsource then it will let you know when you start to transfer.

I put as much of Topo as I could on a 2 gig card. It took a very long
time. Let the process continue.

Tom H.

2008-02-16, 10:33 pm

Does it make any difference in speed transferring to a card in a card reader
compared to transferring to the card in the gps?

With large mapsets, even the assembly process prior to the transfer takes a
while. Anyone have guess as to the reason for that?

In my case when I tried to send a mapset over the 2025 segment limit, I got
a warning about the limit and the transfer either stopped then, or I
manually stopped it, I can't remember which.

Tom

Joel

2008-02-17, 10:33 am

Jack Erbes < jackerbes@roadrunner
.com> wrote:

> Joel wrote:
> <snip>
>
> The problem is probably that you have too many maps or segments selected.

It's very possible, but it's still way too slow. Right now, it's almost 3
days (around 62-64 hrs) it's now 95% done <bg>

> There is an undocumented limit on the number of map segments that can
> processed and uploaded from MapSource. The maximum is 2,025 segments.
> If you selected all of Topo 2008 I think you have selected something
> like 6,600 segments, no?

2,xxx is what I read you mentioned dozen of times before, but as I
mentioned that.

- It's just a test so I selected the whole USA map

- Because unlike other maps, the TOPO 2008 doesn't have the option to select
any individual block so I se mouse (I actually use PEN but say mouse because
mouse is most people understand) to select from Upper_Left_Corner to
Lower_Right_Corner of the whole map. So it's possible that it may be more
than 2.xxx, and I am expecting some type of error at the end.

But since it's a test so I just lets it continues to see the result.

> I have the previous version, it was called U.S. Topo. But I think Topo
> 2008 has the same number of segments in it as did U.S. Topo.

I do think all Garmin maps do, except that unlike other maps I have they
all give the option to select each individual BLOCK (segment), but for some
reason the TOPO 2008 doesn't seem to work that way. But I can hi-lite the
whole map.

Hmmm.. may be because it has so many tiny blocks and I didn't zoom in
close enough? I know I zoomed in to around 100 Miles scale which should
show the selection .. or I may have to zoom in even closer?

> My version has the topo mapping divided into four regions, East, West,
> Alaska, and Hawaii. East and West have more than 2,500 segments each,
> Alaska has about 1,500, and Hawaii has less than thirty.
>
> Regardless of how the segments are grouped in Topo 2008, you cannot
> upload more than 2,025 at a time. And when you try to do it the process
> slows down grossly and might not even ever finish. If it does finish
> the map file might not work in the GPS. If it does work in the GPS it
> will not have all the segments you selected in it.

And I have been expecting some problem at the end sometime today.

> <snip>
>
> Well, I guess maybe you going to have to start. If I select all the
> segments in my version it totals out to 6,639 maps totaling 1,795.8 MB.

I am pretty sure I saw something 3.xGB .. but I may be wrong. Or usually
when I do something for real, I often study thing very carefully, but
because it's a quick test so I didn't pay much attention to all small
detail.

> How many maps and what size does Topo 2008 total out to? If the size
> has nearly doubled they must have added a lot of stuff to it.

I made sure to clear everything, and nothing but the whole map of TOPO
2008.

>
> Why can't you select them one by one? Maybe there is something about
> Topo 2008 I don't understand.

That's what I don't understand. Or Garmin isn't new to me, and I checked
with the City Navigator 2008 and I was able to select each individual
segment just fine, but for some reason the TOPO 2008 doesn't work. And as I
mention above that may be because the TOPO 2008 has much smaller segments
and I didn't zoom in close enough?

Hmmmm but I did look at the selected segment at the LEFT of MapSource and
no segment was added.

OK... I am looking at the left size of MapSource right now, and it says.

- 5172 Map(s). I sign of failing here <bg>

- 3129MB

> <snip>
>
>
> City Navigator only has about 350 segments, or 50 if you have the NT
> version. U.S. Topo is the only mapping that maxes out over the 2,025
> limit.

So, I guess I didn't see the selection because the segments are very
small, and I didn't zoom in close enough. But it should show some selection
to the Left of Mapsource (MAP window) when I clicked somewhere in the map.

> To travel with all the topo mapping you have to divide it up onto more
> than one microSD card. Or use one of the other workarounds to beat the
> 2,025 limit.

If my memory still serve me well, then I believe I read either you or
someone else mentioned the trick to have multiple maps (>2025 limit) on
single memory card by renaming the folder "garmin" to something like
"garmin1", "garmin2" etc..

But that I may try later.

>
> You're right. I learned it the hard way too. It is one of the rites of
> passage for using MapSource. Garmin is not renowned for having
> excellent documentation or excellent software either one. The only
> things that are less excellent than those are their product pages. A
> decidedly most unexcellent company on the whole. But they make pretty
> good GPS receivers.
>
> Jack

It's now 96% done, and am I expecting some type of error in few hours <bg>

Joel

2008-02-17, 10:33 am

Jack Erbes

2008-02-17, 10:33 am

tnom@mucks.net wrote:
> Keep going. Some of the new Garmins have no limit on the size of
> the SD card. If the 2000 segment limit is in tact with your version of
> Mapsource then it will let you know when you start to transfer.
>
> I put as much of Topo as I could on a 2 gig card. It took a very long
> time. Let the process continue.

In my experience, selecting more than 2,025 files will sometimes result
in a very slow and apparently successful transfer to the GPS. And the
file may pass inspection by the GPS on start up and you can choose to
display it.

But the bottom line is that if you compare the segments on the GPS with
the segments that were originally selected in MapSource, you will be
missing some of them.

You can see what segments you actually have on you GPS now be
"downloading the maps" from the GPS. That does not download the actual
maps, only a list of the maps.

As always, I'm not certain of all of this and that it applies to all
receivers as it is some of the stuff that Garmin does not document. We
are sort of debating trivia here, not arguing facts.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Dale Atkin

2008-02-17, 10:33 am

>> Well, I guess maybe you going to have to start. If I select all the
>
> - 5172 Map(s). I sign of failing here <bg>
>
> - 3129MB
>

Thought I'd jump in.... Doesn't the new Topo include DEM information? That's
likely to raise the overall file size by a few Gigs...

Dale

Jack Erbes

2008-02-17, 12:34 pm

Tom H. wrote:
> Does it make any difference in speed transferring to a card in a card reader
> compared to transferring to the card in the gps?

It will go faster in a card reader than it will with the card in a USB
connected GPS receiver. Other variables apply, speed of the memory on
the card, version of the USB ports, etc.

But I find it worthwhile to put the microSD card in a reader for
transfers. I seem to get faster results on my laptop with a PCMCIA
memory card adapter than I do with a USB one.

> With large mapsets, even the assembly process prior to the transfer takes a
> while. Anyone have guess as to the reason for that?

It is just part of Garmin's standard process of converting the map data
to the format needed on the GPSR. The process describes itself first as
building index files, then building a map set, and then transferring the
mapset. The second step is the most time consuming, it accounts for the
majority of the time used.

If I recall right, it took about one hour to send a 1.8 GB CNNA 2008 map
to a CF card in a USB reader with the final step, the actual transfer to
the card, accounting for about 15 minutes of that time. U.S. Topo, with
all of its map segments, is by far the slowest of all the MapSource
products.

> In my case when I tried to send a mapset over the 2025 segment limit, I got
> a warning about the limit and the transfer either stopped then, or I
> manually stopped it, I can't remember which.

I don't seem to ever get those errors. As a test, I just started a
transfer of 2,622 maps/648.9 MB (U.S. Topo West) with MapSource 6.13.5.0
and it started up building the map set without any error message.

I am using a 2 GB SanDisk Ultra II CF card in a SanDisk 7-in-1 USB reader.

The estimates for the time needed to do a map transfer are grossly
inaccurate or erratic at best. And can get wildly erratic when you
exceed the 2,025 limit.

The above transfer started by saying that the process would take about
38 minutes, that climbed to 43 minutes shortly after (at 10% complete).

Ten minutes after starting, the process was 20% complete and the time
remaining was still 43 minutes. By this point it had finished building
the index files and was building the map set.

At 17 minutes it was 30% complete estimating 43 minutes to go.
At 26 minutes it was 40% complete estimating 41 minutes to go.
At 40 minutes it was 53% complete estimating 37 minutes to go.
At 49 minutes it was 60% complete estimating 33 minutes to go.
At 60 minutes it was 70% complete estimating 27 minutes to go.
At 91 minutes it was 90% complete estimating 11 minutes to go.

At 106 minutes it was 100% complete, finished building the map set and
started the transfer to the card. The transfer was estimated at 2
minutes and that and "finalizing the transfer" too about that long.

So it took 108 minutes for a 2,622 maps/648.9 MB transfer of U.S. Topo
maps against a starting estimate of 38 minutes.

I put the card in my 2610 and fired it up and the maps are working fine.
I downloaded the maps from MapSource and it says that all 2,622 maps
are there. It shows the list of maps to be exactly as I transferred,
2,622 maps and 648.9 MB.

So that is a new one on me. Maybe you can do more than 2,025? But not
grossly more?

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Jack Erbes

2008-02-17, 12:34 pm

Dale Atkin wrote:
>
> Thought I'd jump in.... Doesn't the new Topo include DEM information? That's
> likely to raise the overall file size by a few Gigs...
>

Thanks for doing that. Can you give us a brief explanation of what the
DEM data is and/or the benefits of having that?

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Jack Erbes

2008-02-17, 12:34 pm

Joel wrote:
<snip>
> It's very possible, but it's still way too slow. Right now, it's almost 3
> days (around 62-64 hrs) it's now 95% done <bg>
>

No sense in bailing out now. It will be interesting to see what you have
at the finish. To see if it works and how many maps it has.

<snip>
> Hmmm.. may be because it has so many tiny blocks and I didn't zoom in
> close enough? I know I zoomed in to around 100 Miles scale which should
> show the selection .. or I may have to zoom in even closer?

What is your screen size? On a 19" screen at 1024 x 768 I don't have
any trouble selecting individual segments at 200 mile zoom level with
MapSource full screen. I use click and drag for mass selections and
Ctrl + click and drag for unselecting.

Did you know you can run multiple instances of MapSource? That is handy
for working on another map when one is busy or for copying selections
and data from one to another.

> OK... I am looking at the left size of MapSource right now, and it says.
>
> - 5172 Map(s). I sign of failing here <bg>
>
> - 3129MB
>

If I select East and West I get 5,187 maps and 1509.6 MB. I wonder what
accounts for the size increase, nearly doubling, from U.S. Topo to Topo
2008?

>
> If my memory still serve me well, then I believe I read either you or
> someone else mentioned the trick to have multiple maps (>2025 limit) on
> single memory card by renaming the folder "garmin" to something like
> "garmin1", "garmin2" etc..

That is what I did. I have all of U.S. Topo on a 2 GB card and named
the folders East, West (includes Hawaii) and Alaska. If Topo 2008
totals out at over 3 GB I would have to use two cards.

You'll see my other post here too. I just proved myself wrong about the
2,025 limit and transferred 2,622 maps/648.9 MB to a card.

So the confusion continues.

Maybe I'll try transferring all of them...

Jack

Tom H.

2008-02-17, 3:33 pm

"Jack Erbes" <jackerbes@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:47b86d68$0$8637
$4c368faf@roadrunner
.com...
> Tom H. wrote:
>
> It will go faster in a card reader than it will with the card in a USB
> connected GPS receiver. Other variables apply, speed of the memory on
> the card, version of the USB ports, etc.
>
> But I find it worthwhile to put the microSD card in a reader for
> transfers. I seem to get faster results on my laptop with a PCMCIA
> memory card adapter than I do with a USB one.
>
>
> It is just part of Garmin's standard process of converting the map data
> to the format needed on the GPSR. The process describes itself first as
> building index files, then building a map set, and then transferring the
> mapset. The second step is the most time consuming, it accounts for the
> majority of the time used.
>
> If I recall right, it took about one hour to send a 1.8 GB CNNA 2008 map
> to a CF card in a USB reader with the final step, the actual transfer to
> the card, accounting for about 15 minutes of that time. U.S. Topo, with
> all of its map segments, is by far the slowest of all the MapSource
> products.
>
>
> I don't seem to ever get those errors. As a test, I just started a
> transfer of 2,622 maps/648.9 MB (U.S. Topo West) with MapSource 6.13.5.0
> and it started up building the map set without any error message.
>
> I am using a 2 GB SanDisk Ultra II CF card in a SanDisk 7-in-1 USB reader.
>
> The estimates for the time needed to do a map transfer are grossly
> inaccurate or erratic at best. And can get wildly erratic when you
> exceed the 2,025 limit.
>
> The above transfer started by saying that the process would take about
> 38 minutes, that climbed to 43 minutes shortly after (at 10% complete).
>
> Ten minutes after starting, the process was 20% complete and the time
> remaining was still 43 minutes. By this point it had finished building
> the index files and was building the map set.
>
> At 17 minutes it was 30% complete estimating 43 minutes to go.
> At 26 minutes it was 40% complete estimating 41 minutes to go.
> At 40 minutes it was 53% complete estimating 37 minutes to go.
> At 49 minutes it was 60% complete estimating 33 minutes to go.
> At 60 minutes it was 70% complete estimating 27 minutes to go.
> At 91 minutes it was 90% complete estimating 11 minutes to go.
>
> At 106 minutes it was 100% complete, finished building the map set and
> started the transfer to the card. The transfer was estimated at 2
> minutes and that and "finalizing the transfer" too about that long.
>
> So it took 108 minutes for a 2,622 maps/648.9 MB transfer of U.S. Topo
> maps against a starting estimate of 38 minutes.
>
> I put the card in my 2610 and fired it up and the maps are working fine.
> I downloaded the maps from MapSource and it says that all 2,622 maps
> are there. It shows the list of maps to be exactly as I transferred,
> 2,622 maps and 648.9 MB.
>
> So that is a new one on me. Maybe you can do more than 2,025? But not
> grossly more?
>
Jack,
Maybe I saw the 2025 error message because I was transferring to the gps
directly and not the card reader. The warning might have been that the gps
unit could not use more than 2025 segments or something like that. If you
send to a card reader, then Mapsource might not know what kind of gpsr you
will use and the limit might vary from one model of gpsr to another. In my
case I was using a 60CSx.

Tom

Joel

2008-02-17, 3:33 pm

Joel <Joel@NoSpam.plz> wrote:

> Jack Erbes < jackerbes@roadrunner
.com> wrote:
>
>
> It's very possible, but it's still way too slow. Right now, it's almost 3
> days (around 62-64 hrs) it's now 95% done <bg>
>
>
> 2,xxx is what I read you mentioned dozen of times before, but as I
> mentioned that.
>
> - It's just a test so I selected the whole USA map
>
> - Because unlike other maps, the TOPO 2008 doesn't have the option to select
> any individual block so I se mouse (I actually use PEN but say mouse because
> mouse is most people understand) to select from Upper_Left_Corner to
> Lower_Right_Corner of the whole map. So it's possible that it may be more
> than 2.xxx, and I am expecting some type of error at the end.
>
> But since it's a test so I just lets it continues to see the result.

<snip>

UPDATING

It just done transfering the whole TOPO 2008 to the 8GB memory card & Card
Reader. I inserted the memory card with the whole TOPO 2008 to Nuvi 680 and
it doesn't detect the TOPO or still only show the Citu Navigatpr 2008 (I may
need to learn more about map on external memory card).

And I am trying again.

- I ZOOM IN 70 mile scale and be able to see small segments, and able to
select (add) to the selection.

- I add the whole City Navigator 2008 (I hope the unlock works as I got the
DVD from Garmin) and about 2 states of TOPO 2008 which end up with 589 Maps
instead of over 5xxx <bg>, and the size is 1.3G instead of 3.3GB.

MapSource reports it will take 9 mins (more like it) to transfer both
Whole City Navigator 2008 and small selection of TOPO 2008 to memory card
using card reader.

- MapSource still eat around 80-90% of CPU *but* it uses only around 88,000K
of memory instead of 300-400K when I selected the whole TOPO 2008.

So, it was my error on the first test. And will see if I will be able to
see 2 maps this time. And thanks for all who involve in this message test.

Joel

2008-02-17, 3:33 pm

Jack Erbes <jackerbes@adelphia.net> wrote:

> Joel wrote:
> <snip>
>
> No sense in bailing out now. It will be interesting to see what you have
> at the finish. To see if it works and how many maps it has.

That's why I kept it running for almost 3 days cuz I too want to see the
result. See other message, but I may do it here as well.

- After the map transferring finsihed, I insterted to Nuvi 680 and checked
the MAP info where it displays the installed map(s) and give option to
switch map etc. But it only diplay the original City Navigator which is on
internal memory.

- I checked the .IMG size on K:\garmin and it's 3.2G.

- Since I try to install the whole City Navigator 2008 and small part of the
TOPO 2008 (589 total segments instead of 5,xxx), so I moved the 3.2GB TOPO
2008 (IMG) to other folder.

Anyway, MapSource first report it will take 9 minutes, but actually longer
than that, but shouldn't take longer than 20-30 minutes (I guess).

> <snip>
>
> What is your screen size? On a 19" screen at 1024 x 768 I don't have
> any trouble selecting individual segments at 200 mile zoom level with
> MapSource full screen. I use click and drag for mass selections and
> Ctrl + click and drag for unselecting.

I am using 20", and the problem isn't about the screen size but because
TOPO has around 5,3xx small segments. And I am able to see the selection at
around 70-100 mile scale.

> Did you know you can run multiple instances of MapSource? That is handy
> for working on another map when one is busy or for copying selections
> and data from one to another.
>
>
> If I select East and West I get 5,187 maps and 1509.6 MB. I wonder what
> accounts for the size increase, nearly doubling, from U.S. Topo to Topo
> 2008?

TOPO US 2008

>
> That is what I did. I have all of U.S. Topo on a 2 GB card and named
> the folders East, West (includes Hawaii) and Alaska. If Topo 2008
> totals out at over 3 GB I would have to use two cards.
>
> You'll see my other post here too. I just proved myself wrong about the
> 2,025 limit and transferred 2,622 maps/648.9 MB to a card.

That's close enough! and I don't think I will need that many.

> So the confusion continues.
>
> Maybe I'll try transferring all of them...
>
> Jack

tnom@mucks.net

2008-02-17, 3:33 pm

Reading my 2 gig SD card with half of Topo installed shows
a garmin folder that contains a 2 gig "gmapsupp.img" file

Yours should be the same other than the size.

Dale Atkin

2008-02-17, 3:33 pm

>> Thought I'd jump in.... Doesn't the new Topo include DEM information?
>
> Thanks for doing that. Can you give us a brief explanation of what the
> DEM data is and/or the benefits of having that?
>

Basically its the difference between a raster and a vector representation.

With the traditional topo maps, the elevation is indicated along lines of
constant elevation (i.e. the contours) this is the 'vector' representation.
With a DEM (or Digital Elevation Model), you are given the elevation at each
point on a grid (this would the be the 'raster' representation). There are
several advantages to this kind of representation.

First, it makes rendering pretty coloured maps easier (you can assign a
gradation of colours to the elevations, and it can be rendered at each point
to colour the map). It also allows the generation of some cool 3d stuff
imagery (the potential is there... I don't know if anyone actually does this
with the garmin stuff).

It can also allow you to choose different contour intervals, and what not
(again, don't know if they are doing this, but the potential is there)

The big disadvantage is size of the dataset (think the difference in size
between a scanned map, and a vector representation of the same map). As
noted above, this raised the overall dataset size by about 1.5GB (I'm
actually surprised it was only this much. I would have thought more... They
probably apply some kind of compression to the data. My Canadian, non-Garmin
DEM data is about 40GB uncompressed.)

Dale

Jerry M

2008-02-17, 10:33 pm

On Feb 17, 12:22=A0pm, Jack Erbes <jacker...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Tom H. wrote:
ader[color=darkred]
>
> It will go faster in a card reader than it will with the card in a USB
> connected GPS receiver. =A0Other variables apply, speed of the memory on
> the card, version of the USB ports, etc.
>
> But I find it worthwhile to put the microSD card in a reader for
> transfers. =A0I seem to get faster results on my laptop with a PCMCIA
> memory card adapter than I do with a USB one.
>
s a[color=darkred]
>
> It is just part of Garmin's standard process of converting the map data
> to the format needed on the GPSR. The process describes itself first as
> building index files, then building a map set, and then transferring the
> mapset. The second step is the most time consuming, it accounts for the
> majority of the time used.
>
> If I recall right, it took about one hour to send a 1.8 GB CNNA 2008 map
> to a CF card in a USB reader with the final step, the actual transfer to
> the card, accounting for about 15 minutes of that time. =A0U.S. Topo, with=

> all of its map segments, is by far the slowest of all the MapSource
> products.
>
got[color=darkred]
>
> I don't seem to ever get those errors. =A0As a test, I just started a
> transfer of 2,622 maps/648.9 MB (U.S. Topo West) with MapSource 6.13.5.0
> and it started up building the map set without any error message.
>
> I am using a 2 GB SanDisk Ultra II CF card in a SanDisk 7-in-1 USB reader.=

>
> The estimates for the time needed to do a map transfer are grossly
> inaccurate or erratic at best. =A0And can get wildly erratic when you
> exceed the 2,025 limit.
>
> The above transfer started by saying that the process would take about
> 38 minutes, that climbed to 43 minutes shortly after (at 10% complete).
>
> Ten minutes after starting, the process was 20% complete and the time
> remaining was still 43 minutes. =A0By this point it had finished building
> the index files and was building the map set.
>
> At 17 minutes it was 30% complete estimating 43 minutes to go.
> At 26 minutes it was 40% complete estimating 41 minutes to go.
> At 40 minutes it was 53% complete estimating 37 minutes to go.
> At 49 minutes it was 60% complete estimating 33 minutes to go.
> At 60 minutes it was 70% complete estimating 27 minutes to go.
> At 91 minutes it was 90% complete estimating 11 minutes to go.
>
> At 106 minutes it was 100% complete, finished building the map set and
> started the transfer to the card. =A0The transfer was estimated at 2
> minutes and that and "finalizing the transfer" too about that long.
>
> So it took 108 minutes for a 2,622 maps/648.9 MB transfer of U.S. Topo
> maps against a starting estimate of 38 minutes.
>
> I put the card in my 2610 and fired it up and the maps are working fine.
> =A0I downloaded the maps from MapSource and it says that all 2,622 maps
> are there. =A0It shows the list of maps to be exactly as I transferred,
> 2,622 maps and 648.9 MB.
>
> So that is a new one on me. =A0Maybe you can do more than 2,025? =A0But no=
t
> grossly more?
>
> Jack
>
> --
> Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
> (also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Jack the 2025 mapset limit does not pertain to the 2610 which has a
4005 mapset limit. Just thought I would remind you the 2610 mapset
limit was changed from 2025 to 4005 in later firmware updates.
Jerry

Jack Erbes

2008-02-17, 10:33 pm

Joel wrote:
<snip>
> It just done transfering the whole TOPO 2008 to the 8GB memory card & Card
> Reader. I inserted the memory card with the whole TOPO 2008 to Nuvi 680 and
> it doesn't detect the TOPO or still only show the Citu Navigatpr 2008 (I may
> need to learn more about map on external memory card).

So the three day or whatever map transfer failed, right?

And the CN 2008 maps that you mention seeing above are the ones that are
the preloaded mapping on the nuvi, right?

There is a more or less standard location and filename for supplemental
detail maps that is used on the Garmin handhelds and that has also been
found to work on at least some of the nuvis.

That is to have a \garmin folder off the root of the SD card and to have
the supplemental map image file, named gmapsupp.img, located there. I
don't think the software on the GPS receivers will find it with any
other name and maybe not at any other location.

I think I recall an instance of someone putting a gmapsupp.img file in
the main memory on either a nuvi or a zumo and the receiver found that
and used it. I'd be very careful about writing anything to the main
memory though, there is always a chance that you might do something that
would cause you to lose the preloaded mapping.

The normal process on the handhelds using memory cards is that when you
want to add or change to another map, you upload it from MapSource and
it overwrites the existing gmapsupp.img file.

If you want to have maps from multiple products (CNNA 2008 and Topo USA
2008 for example), you have to select the segments from both of those in
MapSource and they would be combined into one file in the Transfer
process and both types of maps would be in the resulting gmapsupp.img
file.

You can copy the gmapsupp.img files to a hard drive and restore them
later and they will work. Again, with the use of a single file name,you
have to name and rename files and/or folders to prevent losing map image
files through overwriting with another file with the same name.

Jack

Jack Erbes

2008-02-17, 10:33 pm

Tom H. wrote:

<snip>
> Jack,
> Maybe I saw the 2025 error message because I was transferring to the gps
> directly and not the card reader. The warning might have been that the gps
> unit could not use more than 2025 segments or something like that. If you
> send to a card reader, then Mapsource might not know what kind of gpsr you
> will use and the limit might vary from one model of gpsr to another. In my
> case I was using a 60CSx.
>
> Tom

Good point, Tom. I have not done a transfer to a card while it was in a
receiver in a long time. If I'm transferring map files that need to
unlocked, I usually connect the receiver by USB but put the card in the
reader.

I connect the GPS so that MapSource will get a hint as to that unlock
code needs to be applied. This is another of the Garmin unlock process
mysteries. It sometimes appears that MapSource will apply any and all
unlocks codes to all map files if you have unlocks for multiple
receivers but I have files generate an "unlock error" when the GPS was
not attached.

Jack

Jack Erbes

2008-02-17, 10:33 pm

Jerry M wrote:
<snip>
> Jack the 2025 mapset limit does not pertain to the 2610 which has a
> 4005 mapset limit. Just thought I would remind you the 2610 mapset
> limit was changed from 2025 to 4005 in later firmware updates.
> Jerry

Thanks Jerry, that's the first time I remember hearing that number. I
was under the impression that the 2,025 applied to all transfers from
MapSource and to all receivers.

The lack of documentation on all of this makes it pretty mysterious. A
Garmin tech support person did confirm the 2,025 limit for me in a tech
support call. And indicated that he thought that their intention was to
get the topo packages down to a more reasonable number of segments but
he did not know when that would happen. This was just after USA Topo
2008 was released.

Just out of curiosity, I may copy that gmapsupp.img file to my hard
drive, then to a microSD card, and try it on my 76Cx to see if that
makes any difference. I'm actually not too worried about it, I've sort
already learned a lot more than I want to know about all of this...

Jack

Dale Atkin

2008-02-17, 10:33 pm

> I think I recall an instance of someone putting a gmapsupp.img file in the
> main memory on either a nuvi or a zumo and the receiver found that and
> used it. I'd be very careful about writing anything to the main memory
> though, there is always a chance that you might do something that would
> cause you to lose the preloaded mapping.

IIRC from the one nuvi I played around with, the preloaded maps have a
different filename and are locked to 'read only'. Rather difficult to
actually blow away (although obviously I wasn't trying...)

Dale

Tom H.

2008-02-17, 10:33 pm

> I connect the GPS so that MapSource will get a hint as to that unlock
> code needs to be applied. This is another of the Garmin unlock process
> mysteries. It sometimes appears that MapSource will apply any and all
> unlocks codes to all map files if you have unlocks for multiple receivers
> but I have files generate an "unlock error" when the GPS was not attached.
>

Warning, thread hijack to come:

Ahh yes, the wonderful world of unlock codes. Something we all love to
hate!!!

There have been some comments on this thread (or others recently, it all
blurs together after a while) about poor Garmin documentation. Yep it
could be better, but most of the undocumented stuff being complained about
is material only real techie types would even think about. But, on this
newsgroup we have an abnormal distribution of interest levels, with the
highly technical (at least for non-professionals) being in great abundance.
But the unlock code is something even the newbie will find annoying.

Tom

Jack Erbes

2008-02-18, 7:34 am

Dale Atkin wrote:
>
> IIRC from the one nuvi I played around with, the preloaded maps have a
> different filename and are locked to 'read only'. Rather difficult to
> actually blow away (although obviously I wasn't trying...)
>
> Dale

I believe you're right about that Dale. It is also a *.img file but
with a different name. And it is by far the largest file in main memory.

I hate to say anything here that would encourage someone to do something
that would "brick" their GPS receivers. I like that term, a good term
for these times. I have a couple of bricked Garmins down in the
basement now, a 135, and a 220 I think.

Jack

Joel

2008-02-18, 12:33 pm

Jack Erbes < jackerbes@roadrunner
.com> wrote:

> Joel wrote:
> <snip>
>
> So the three day or whatever map transfer failed, right?

The transferring reported OK, *but* for some reason Nuvi doesn't detect
the new additional map (5,xxx segments).

> And the CN 2008 maps that you mention seeing above are the ones that are
> the preloaded mapping on the nuvi, right?

Yup! the pre-loaded one

> There is a more or less standard location and filename for supplemental
> detail maps that is used on the Garmin handhelds and that has also been
> found to work on at least some of the nuvis.
>
> That is to have a \garmin folder off the root of the SD card and to have
> the supplemental map image file, named gmapsupp.img, located there. I
> don't think the software on the GPS receivers will find it with any
> other name and maybe not at any other location.

I just moved to other folder in order to do other test. Or I just wanna
make sure that the 3.2GB .IMG is safed, just incase Garmin may delete the
\garmin folder to start a newer one.

> I think I recall an instance of someone putting a gmapsupp.img file in
> the main memory on either a nuvi or a zumo and the receiver found that
> and used it. I'd be very careful about writing anything to the main
> memory though, there is always a chance that you might do something that
> would cause you to lose the preloaded mapping.

Right now, I only transfer to the *external* memory *not* the GPS itself.
And I even make sure to have the GPS disconnected just incase. Or I don't
need the TOPO at the moment, just a test after been reading about having
extra map on external memory for years <bg>

> The normal process on the handhelds using memory cards is that when you
> want to add or change to another map, you upload it from MapSource and
> it overwrites the existing gmapsupp.img file.

With my older GPSes they do warn about erasing the existing map, *but* not
with the *external* memory MapSouse doesn't give any warning.

Hmm.. even with the StreetPilot III which uses external DATA-Card
Mapsource does give the warning.

> If you want to have maps from multiple products (CNNA 2008 and Topo USA
> 2008 for example), you have to select the segments from both of those in
> MapSource and they would be combined into one file in the Transfer
> process and both types of maps would be in the resulting gmapsupp.img
> file.

Got it! this I have known for years and was having multiple maps on my
older Garmin GPSes.

> You can copy the gmapsupp.img files to a hard drive and restore them
> later and they will work. Again, with the use of a single file name,you
> have to name and rename files and/or folders to prevent losing map image
> files through overwriting with another file with the same name.

I will do some studying about the "gmapsupp.img" later to see what's
about.

NOW back to the multiple MAPs on Nuvi 680.

With a small part of the TOPO 2008 and Pre-loaded CN 2008

- Nuvi 680 detects the TOPO 2008

- Nuvi 680 selected *both* CN 2008 & TOPO 2008

Yes, I read someone mentioned to enable the one we want to use, and
uncheck the other, but I wanna test with both selected.

- And it seems like Nuvi 680 may have problem with 2 different maps
enabaled. I set a 6 miles route test, and the speech was off.

a. "turn right on Adam St" = correct

b. "turn right on 96th St" = correct.

c. While on 96th St "turn right on 96 St" = WRONG
or suppose to be "turn left on Harrision St"

d. After the error above everything was ok.

- I noticed the Hi-Lite colot of Hi-Way (RED) changed to BROWN with thick
edges.

I will try different test later see how Nuvi 680 works with both MAPs
selected. And will try just TOPO 2008 to see how well it works (I read Nuvi
680 may not have all features working with TOPO 2008).

> Jack

Jack Erbes

2008-02-19, 7:33 am

Dale Atkin wrote:
<snip>
>
> Basically its the difference between a raster and a vector representation.
>
> With the traditional topo maps, the elevation is indicated along lines of
> constant elevation (i.e. the contours) this is the 'vector' representation.
> With a DEM (or Digital Elevation Model), you are given the elevation at each
> point on a grid (this would the be the 'raster' representation). There are
> several advantages to this kind of representation.
>
> First, it makes rendering pretty coloured maps easier (you can assign a
> gradation of colours to the elevations, and it can be rendered at each point
> to colour the map). It also allows the generation of some cool 3d stuff
> imagery (the potential is there... I don't know if anyone actually does this
> with the garmin stuff).
>
> It can also allow you to choose different contour intervals, and what not
> (again, don't know if they are doing this, but the potential is there)
>
> The big disadvantage is size of the dataset (think the difference in size
> between a scanned map, and a vector representation of the same map). As
> noted above, this raised the overall dataset size by about 1.5GB (I'm
> actually surprised it was only this much. I would have thought more... They
> probably apply some kind of compression to the data. My Canadian, non-Garmin
> DEM data is about 40GB uncompressed.)
>

Thanks for the explanation, Dale. My needs in topo have always been
pretty simple and the U.S. Topo 1:100,000 representation and detail has
been adequate. I will usually have a 1:24K paper map if I want more
detail.

I sort of wonder if that DEM data goes to the capabilities described for
the newer Colorado series handhelds. They describe some type 3-D
presentation as one of the capabilities of those.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Dale Atkin

2008-02-19, 10:33 am

> I sort of wonder if that DEM data goes to the capabilities described for
> the newer Colorado series handhelds. They describe some type 3-D
> presentation as one of the capabilities of those.

I'm (fairly) certain that is exactly how the Colorado does its 3-D
presentation.

Dale

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