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Railway Stations [was Re: Where get fake background noises to use when on phone?]
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| Jet Morgan 2005-06-30, 9:55 am |
|
"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" <me8@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ant300946868dVp
W@office.ajlelectronics.co.uk...
quote:
> In article <20050628.1732.60387snz@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
> <URL:mailto:bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> What are you doing on *my* soapbox? You'll start on about "sidewalks" in a
> minute. :-)
Thank you B{HK} for explaining what a T**** Station was. When I was first
asked where the T**** Station was by a passer-by, I didn't know what they
meant: they were dressed as if going to a sports/keep-fit establishment, so
I though "The T****Station" was simply the trade name of one of those
establishments
(as in weight-training etc), and had to tell them honestly that I didn't
know
where it was.
Now that I *do* know, I can add it to my "John Menzies" list; that is the
list of things for which I reply with a deadpan "never heard of it"
expression
when people phrase/pronounce something wrongly.
I've noticed that some of the metrophobes have been erasing the metric
equivalents on some road signs round here (even when the metric equivalent
is in a recessive typeface). Maybe we should take a leaf out of their book
and go around overprinting "T****" with "Railway" whenever we see it on
public places etc.
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-06-30, 9:55 am |
| On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:48:33 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
<jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>I've noticed that some of the metrophobes have been erasing the metric
>equivalents on some road signs round here (even when the metric equivalent
>is in a recessive typeface).
are metric roadsigns legal ? I thought not.
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-06-30, 4:56 pm |
|
"Phil Thompson" <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:g0m7c1tpk6d4ut5
e45t0hvj0frjv1ifr79@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:48:33 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
> <jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
equivalent[vbcol=dar
kred]
>
> are metric roadsigns legal ? I thought not.
My understanding is that they have to be in a system of measurement
which "most people" can understand. If so, this will vary according
to demographics.
Anyway, I was referring to a road sign(s) that had metric equivalents
written in parentheses, in a smaller typeface, and after the main
imperial measure. If dual system signs are unlawful, there are an
awful lot of them about, especially height restriction signs for
the benefit of lorries coming here (PE12). Most of them are Spanish,
Dutch,Lithuanian or whatever. Could be a safety issue if these drivers
could not read them.
Ruchard [in PE12]
quote:
>
> Phil
> --
> spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
> Come on down !
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-06-30, 4:56 pm |
| On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:12:26 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
<jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>My understanding is that they have to be in a system of measurement
>which "most people" can understand. If so, this will vary according
>to demographics.
# It is not lawful to use signs that show distances in metres or
kilometres. This applies to both road traffic signs and pavement signs
for pedestrians (although not to signs on private land).
# It is a legal requirement that signs giving restrictions on traffic
width, length and height (eg on approaches to bridges) have imperial
units.
# Dual-marked imperial-metric signs are legal for vehicle height and
width restriction signs but not for length restriction signs.
# For length restriction signs, metric may be used alongside imperial
but only on separate, additional signs (in practice, this rarely
happens due to the cost of extra signs).
point 4 looks after the Spanish truckers usually found reversing the
wrong way round roundabouts in Stamford :-)
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Robin Fairbairns 2005-07-01, 9:55 am |
| Phil Thompson <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> writes:
quote:
>On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:12:26 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
><jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
># It is not lawful to use signs that show distances in metres or
>kilometres. This applies to both road traffic signs and pavement signs
>for pedestrians (although not to signs on private land).
># It is a legal requirement that signs giving restrictions on traffic
>width, length and height (eg on approaches to bridges) have imperial
>units.
># Dual-marked imperial-metric signs are legal for vehicle height and
>width restriction signs but not for length restriction signs.
># For length restriction signs, metric may be used alongside imperial
>but only on separate, additional signs (in practice, this rarely
>happens due to the cost of extra signs).
>
>point 4 looks after the Spanish truckers usually found reversing the
>wrong way round roundabouts in Stamford :-)
what with one thing and another, i think i would summarise that lot as
"the law is an XXX".
sigh.
--
Robin (http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq) Fairbairns, Cambridge
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-01, 9:55 am |
| On 1 Jul 2005 09:27:05 GMT, rf@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) wrote:
quote:
>what with one thing and another, i think i would summarise that lot as
>"the law is an XXX".
it has all the symptoms of bits of EU legislation overriding bits of
UK law.
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Martin Underwood 2005-07-01, 9:55 am |
| "Phil Thompson" <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:pg4ac1p1pc8mq2d
v8djecojuh4g9nbiam1@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On 1 Jul 2005 09:27:05 GMT, rf@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) wrote:
>
>
> it has all the symptoms of bits of EU legislation overriding bits of
> UK law.
The laws on metrication are an utter mess. We've been talking about
metrication for as long as I can remember (when I was starting school in the
mid sixties we were taught about centimetres and grammes alongside inches
and ounces) and we *still* haven't made a clean break.
I believe that shops have to sell pre-packed goods in grammes (and possibly
only grammes - additionally giving the pack weight in ounces may not be
permitted) but loose items (boiled ham, cheese etc) can still be sold in
ounces. What a ridiculous, half-hearted effort! In the early 90s I can
remember my local branch of Tesco putting up big signs at the cheese and
deli counters saying that items would only be sold in grammes, and giving
conversion charts. Then they took them down - maybe when they realised that
the "new law" (as it was then) only applied to pre-packed.
I didn't realise that restrictive road signs (max weight, height, length,
width) were still required to give the imperial equivalent. I tend not to
take much notice of them because most of them don't apply to a car! I've
noticed some signs are in dual units (eg height in ft/ins and then again in
metres) - I thought this was the new standard for *all* new signs and that
it was a transition to *only* giving metric units at sometime in the future.
At least we don't have the situation that they had (maybe still have) in
Ireland where distance signs are all in km but speed limit signs are in mph!
The car that I drove when I was there must have been a very minority
version: right-hand drive but with speedo/odometer in km and km/hr. It meant
that I was having to check my speed against the faint red numbers (mph) on
the speedo rather than the much more prominent km/hr markings.
I wish we'd bite the bullet and change properly to the metric system - we
did it for money in 1971 so why is it taking so long for everything else?
Then we can consign the imperial system to the museum of historical
oddities: who in their right mind invents a system where units are not
related by factors of 10? Did some of our ancestors have 3, 8, 12 or 14
fingers to count on? ;-) There isn't even a simple integer relationship
between linear and volumetric units: a gallon is not a nice round number of
cubic inches!
I feel deeply embarrassed that while I always measure in metric units, I'm
just old enough that I can only estimate in imperial units - oh the shame!
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-01, 9:55 am |
| "Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c5209b$0$3084
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
quote:
> The laws on metrication are an utter mess.
Because they represent government meddling where they should leave alone.
quote:
>We've been talking about
> metrication for as long as I can remember (when I was starting school in
> the
> mid sixties we were taught about centimetres and grammes alongside inches
> and ounces) and we *still* haven't made a clean break.
So?
quote:
> I believe that shops have to sell pre-packed goods in grammes (and
> possibly only grammes - additionally giving the pack weight in ounces may
> not be permitted) but loose items (boiled ham, cheese etc) can still be
> sold in ounces. What a ridiculous, half-hearted effort!
No, what a ridiculous imposition by officialdom.
What on earth is wrong with permitting people to buy and sell using any unit
they choose?
quote:
> I didn't realise that restrictive road signs (max weight, height, length,
> width) were still required to give the imperial equivalent. I tend not to
> take much notice of them because most of them don't apply to a car! I've
> noticed some signs are in dual units (eg height in ft/ins and then again
> in metres) - I thought this was the new standard for *all* new signs and
> that it was a transition to *only* giving metric units at sometime in the
> future.
Yes, the jobsworths hope so.
All metric signs are still not legal.
quote:
> At least we don't have the situation that they had (maybe still have) in
> Ireland where distance signs are all in km but speed limit signs are in
> mph!
They changed it last year.
quote:
> I wish we'd bite the bullet and change properly to the metric system - we
> did it for money in 1971 so why is it taking so long for everything else?
It makes sense for abstract concepts like money.
It makes sense for scientific purposes.
It makes no sense for "real world" applications. Imperial units grew up over
centuries such that they had some relationship to the real world. they have
the world of people as a frame of reference.
quote:
> Then we can consign the imperial system to the museum of historical
> oddities: who in their right mind invents a system where units are not
> related by factors of 10? Did some of our ancestors have 3, 8, 12 or 14
> fingers to count on? ;-) There isn't even a simple integer relationship
> between linear and volumetric units: a gallon is not a nice round number
> of cubic inches!
You haven't got the point have you?
quote:
> I feel deeply embarrassed that while I always measure in metric units, I'm
> just old enough that I can only estimate in imperial units - oh the shame!
Nothing to do with age. I'm 10 years younger than you, and I work in
imperial units, because they work for the real world.
| |
|
| In article < 3ikm8vFm1vchU1@indiv
idual.net>,
Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>It makes no sense for "real world" applications. Imperial units grew up over
>centuries such that they had some relationship to the real world. they have
>the world of people as a frame of reference.
What is the current advantage to measuring distance in miles not km, or
liquid volume in pints or gallons not litres?
quote:
>Nothing to do with age. I'm 10 years younger than you, and I work in
>imperial units, because they work for the real world.
Can you provide some examples?
Zane.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-01, 9:55 am |
| <abuse@wilson.st> wrote in message news:tmlfp2-ckv.ln1@news.wilson.st...
quote:
> In article < 3ikm8vFm1vchU1@indiv
idual.net>,
> Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
> What is the current advantage to measuring distance in miles not km, or
> liquid volume in pints or gallons not litres?
Well, a pint is about the right size for a portion of beer.
Go to metric, and to get a similar (smaller) measure, you want half a litre.
So, for quantities of beer, the pint is a good measure, because the unit is
the same size as a standard measure.
quote:
>
> Can you provide some examples?
Can you provide any where the metric measure works better in the real world?
| |
| Robin Fairbairns 2005-07-01, 9:55 am |
| "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> writes:
quote:
>"Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote...
>
>It makes sense for abstract concepts like money.
but it still took something like 120 years to implement. the 2/-
piece (now 10p) was introduced in mid-c19 to facilitate
decimalisation.
quote:
>It makes sense for scientific purposes.
>
>It makes no sense for "real world" applications. Imperial units grew up over
>centuries such that they had some relationship to the real world. they have
>the world of people as a frame of reference.
>
a gallon of water weighs 10 pounds. another victorian legacy (note
the american gallon doesn't have this relation -- i don't know what it
does relate to, if anything).
[vbcol=darkred]
>You haven't got the point have you?
the decision on the number of whatsits in a foobar seems in the past
to have been based on the number of factors the number had. the
quality of ready reckoning seems to me to have gone down since we
started to metricate, to the point that many kids now need a
calculator to multiply by 10.
quote:
>
>Nothing to do with age. I'm 10 years younger than you, and I work in
>imperial units, because they work for the real world.
i'm ~=10 years older than martin, and i do what he does. have to, to
interface with my own children.
a friend encountered wonderful behaviour at a builders' timber yard
just after metrication (ha!) of wood. he chose his lumps of wood, and
took it to the checkout. the man there measured the wood, wrote down
the figures, and laboriously converted them to imperial measures.
once he had them in imperial, he then said how much it cost, with no
intervening work. he knew the ready reckoner by heart... if he's not
retired yet, i wonder if he's still doing the same. ;-)
--
Robin (http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq) Fairbairns, Cambridge
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:38:00 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
<dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>
>Can you provide any where the metric measure works better in the real world?
most engineering is a lot simpler in SI units due to the absence of
gravitational constants and unit conversion factors.
and a Newton-metre is the torque exerted on your shoulder by holding
an apple at arms length :-)
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| "Phil Thompson" <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:v3dac1hqunlof2n
8ccmlfi6ldl3qb4fu06@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:38:00 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
> <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> most engineering is a lot simpler in SI units due to the absence of
> gravitational constants and unit conversion factors.
Correct, so use SI for engineering.
Doesn't mean that we can't buy milk in pints or judge fuel efficiency in
miles per gallon.
| |
| Martin Underwood 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| <abuse@wilson.st> wrote in message news:tmlfp2-ckv.ln1@news.wilson.st...[vbcol=darkred]
> In article < 3ikm8vFm1vchU1@indiv
idual.net>,
> Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
> What is the current advantage to measuring distance in miles not km, or
> liquid volume in pints or gallons not litres?
>
In which case, how come Europe and Australia (and maybe other countries)
have used the metric system for years?
| |
| Martin Underwood 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ikm8vFm1vchU1@
individual.net...
quote:
> "Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:42c5209b$0$3084
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
>
>
> Because they represent government meddling where they should leave alone.
>
>
> So?
So we've been sitting on our arses for 40 years and haven't done it. If we
want to be 19th century Luddites and the laughing stock of Europe (the view
of various French and German people I've spoken to) then we should have the
courage to say so and stick to our guns - at the expense of being difficult
for Europeans to work with. To do it piecemeal is worse than not doing it at
all.
The Imperial system may have human-sized units (though many such as the ton
and the yard have near-equivalents in the metric system) but it's cobbled
together and has lots of arcane units such as the bushel, the chain and the
various definitions of dram/drachm used by differrent industries, instead of
a single unit and simple (ie base 10) multiples and divisions of it for each
physical quantity such as length and mass.
I've not problem with showing dual units - as a transitionary phase. But
when we first decided on metrication, we should have been educating children
solely in metric units so that the imperial system dies out in a few
generations.
| |
| Martin Underwood 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3iko8pFlq8nnU1@
individual.net...
quote:
> <abuse@wilson.st> wrote in message news:tmlfp2-ckv.ln1@news.wilson.st...
>
> Well, a pint is about the right size for a portion of beer.
>
> Go to metric, and to get a similar (smaller) measure, you want half a
> litre.
When I go into a shop I don't want exactly 1 pint of milk or 100 grammes of
boiled ham - I want roughly that amount. So it's irrelevant to me whether I
have to buy 1 pint or 500 mls of milk/beer, as long as I get what I pay for.
quote:
> So, for quantities of beer, the pint is a good measure, because the unit
> is the same size as a standard measure.
What "standard measure" is that? Are you saying that because beer glasses
are 1 pint in capacity, beer should be sold in those units? Isn't that
putting the cart before the horse: the vessels are made to suit the units,
not the other way round.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| "Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c538d8$0$4192
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
quote:
> <abuse@wilson.st> wrote in message news:tmlfp2-ckv.ln1@news.wilson.st...
>
>
> In which case, how come Europe and Australia (and maybe other countries)
> have used the metric system for years?
Because their governments told them to.
Tell me, if you go to France and buy mussels, what do they measure them in?
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
|
"Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c538d8$1$4192
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
quote:
> "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3iko8pFlq8nnU1@
individual.net...
>
> When I go into a shop I don't want exactly 1 pint of milk or 100 grammes
> of boiled ham - I want roughly that amount. So it's irrelevant to me
> whether I have to buy 1 pint or 500 mls of milk/beer, as long as I get
> what I pay for.
The size of the measure isn't important. The unity is.
I don't care over much if the measure is slightly different to 1 pint. I do
want whatever the measure is to be ONE unit, not half a unit, or a quarter
or 50.
quote:
>
> What "standard measure" is that? Are you saying that because beer glasses
> are 1 pint in capacity, beer should be sold in those units?
No.
I'm saying that I want to buy beer in units such that a reasonable sized
glass is one unit.
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:35:39 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
<dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
> judge fuel efficiency in
>miles per gallon.
quite difficult these days as you buy the fuel in litres :-)
my car does 13 miles per litre on a good day.
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| "Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c538d8$2$4192
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
quote:
> "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3ikm8vFm1vchU1@
individual.net...
>
> So we've been sitting on our arses for 40 years and haven't done it.
So what.
In what way is it a problem?
It is only a problem for the terminally anally retentive.
quote:
> If we want to be 19th century Luddites and the laughing stock of Europe
> (the view of various French and German people I've spoken to) then we
> should have the courage to say so and stick to our guns - at the expense
> of being difficult for Europeans to work with. To do it piecemeal is worse
> than not doing it at all.
Indeed.
The glorious leader should say once and for all that this is not a matter
for government.
quote:
> The Imperial system may have human-sized units (though many such as the
> ton and the yard have near-equivalents in the metric system)
Not really that close equivalents though
quote:
> but it's cobbled together and has lots of arcane units such as the bushel,
> the chain and the various definitions of dram/drachm used by differrent
> industries, instead of a single unit and simple (ie base 10) multiples and
> divisions of it for each physical quantity such as length and mass.
Arcane units die out (I wouldn't describe a chain as arcane BTW)
The whole metrication thing relies on an assumption that 10 is an ideal
base, and it isn't.
Other number bases work FAR better when it comes to factoring.
quote:
> I've not problem with showing dual units - as a transitionary phase. But
> when we first decided on metrication, we should have been educating
> children solely in metric units so that the imperial system dies out in a
> few generations.
The gubnint has been doing just that.
It doesn't seem to have worked.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| "Phil Thompson" <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:rpeac19rp7ca2s7
ndricrenubm6t0nc816@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:35:39 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
> <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> quite difficult these days as you buy the fuel in litres :-)
>
> my car does 13 miles per litre on a good day.
In what way are mixed units an improvement?
| |
| Martin Underwood 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3iks2cFllca0U1@
individual.net...
quote:
> "Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:42c538d8$0$4192
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>
>
> Because their governments told them to.
And ours should do the same - if necessary. It's the "if necessary" that is
the problem: we should be educating people so they measure and think in
metric units (as they do in other European countries) so there is no longer
a desire to refer to imperial units.
quote:
> Tell me, if you go to France and buy mussels, what do they measure them
> in?
I don't know, but since you are asking the question I presume it's not
grammes. Do they weigh them in ounces and pounds, then?
| |
| Richard Tobin 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| In article < 3ikm8vFm1vchU1@indiv
idual.net>,
Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>What on earth is wrong with permitting people to buy and sell using any unit
>they choose?
I don't recall any laws about buying things in any units.
As for selling them, there have been laws concerning that for thousands
of years. Did you complain before they switched from imperial to metric?
-- Richard
| |
| Richard Tobin 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| In article < 3ikm8vFm1vchU1@indiv
idual.net>,
Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>Imperial units grew up over
>centuries such that they had some relationship to the real world. they have
>the world of people as a frame of reference.
They were imposed by governments just as metric is now, in laws such
as the Assize of Weights and Measures of 1270.
-- Richard
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:58:47 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
<dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>In what way are mixed units an improvement?
because in this case no conversions are necessary on either piece of
data.
miles/litre is just as good a benchmark as mpg.
it should of course be measured in length^(-2) units
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| On 1 Jul 2005 13:46:58 GMT, richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
wrote:
quote:
>I don't recall any laws about buying things in any units.
not heard of the "metric martyr" then ?
http://www.metricmartyrs.sageweb.co.uk/
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
|
"Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c538d8$2$4192
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
quote:
> I've not problem with showing dual units - as a transitionary phase. But
> when we first decided on metrication, we should have been educating
children
quote:
> solely in metric units
errr. but we did, din't we ? I went to school first in 1969 and we were
taught metric units from day 1, without reference to a pre-existing
imperial system.
Do they now teach metric units exclusively ? Would a modern 17-year-old
have any cognition of inches/pints/pounds ? I'm a bit out of touch.
Wish they'd make their mind up either way.
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| Bob Eager 2005-07-01, 4:55 pm |
| On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:11:50 UTC, Phil Thompson
<phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote:
quote:
> On 1 Jul 2005 13:46:58 GMT, richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
> wrote:
>
>
> not heard of the "metric martyr" then ?
>
> http://www.metricmartyrs.sageweb.co.uk/
He was trying to catch someone out...and he did! He said 'buying'....
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
| |
|
| In article < agjac1db6p4esg71obok
ok78ukca3nme4u@4ax.com>,
Phil Thompson <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote:
quote:
>
>because in this case no conversions are necessary on either piece of
>data.
>
>miles/litre is just as good a benchmark as mpg.
>
>it should of course be measured in length^(-2) units
As a South African, I think of fuel consumption in litres per 100km.
Zane.
| |
| Peter Ilieve 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| In article < noe8c1lsv0a4mfdcfmct
fh934lb974kr03@4ax.com>,
Phil Thompson <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote:
quote:
>
># It is not lawful to use signs that show distances in metres or
>kilometres. This applies to both road traffic signs and pavement signs
>for pedestrians (although not to signs on private land).
Do you have a citation for that? I'm not doubting you, just curious.
You seem to know what you're talking about and I know that on
this subject I don't.
--
Peter Ilieve peter@aldie.co.uk
| |
| Peter Ilieve 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| In article < 3iks2cFllca0U1@indiv
idual.net>,
Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>
>Tell me, if you go to France and buy mussels, what do they measure them in?
Erlangs perhaps (in a desparate effort to insert some on-topic content :-).
--
Peter Ilieve peter@aldie.co.uk
| |
| Peter Ilieve 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| In article < pg4ac1p1pc8mq2dv8dje
cojuh4g9nbiam1@4ax.com>,
Phil Thompson <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote:
quote:
>On 1 Jul 2005 09:27:05 GMT, rf@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) wrote:
>
>
>it has all the symptoms of bits of EU legislation overriding bits of
>UK law.
The EU being well known as a bastion of Imperial measurements. :-)
Given that we seem to be talking about the illegality of metric
signs in the UK, why are people trying to blame this on the EU?
--
Peter Ilieve peter@aldie.co.uk
| |
| Peter Ilieve 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| In article < 3iko8pFlq8nnU1@indiv
idual.net>,
Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>
>Can you provide any where the metric measure works better in the real world?
I do a lot of hillwalking in Scotland. I have literally hundreds of
OS maps, mainly 1:25,000 ones. All of them have a handy grid printed
on them, spaced at 1km (on the ground) intervals. When walking, I've
thought in km for years, decades even. Why think in miles when I
can just count the squares on the map and not worry about any
conversion factors?
--
Peter Ilieve peter@aldie.co.uk
| |
| Richard Tobin 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| In article < vnjac1p40hn0o9e0qe19
j1tom654vqinvs@4ax.com>,
Phil Thompson <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote:
quote:
>
>not heard of the "metric martyr" then ?
Wasn't he selling?
I addressed that in the next paragraph.
-- Richard
| |
| Richard Tobin 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| In article <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-oJSjc3Ndneb8@rikki.tavi.co.uk>,
Bob Eager <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:
quote:
>He was trying to catch someone out...and he did! He said 'buying'....
No, I had one paragraph about buying, one about selling. I didn't
intend to catch anyone out.
-- Richard
| |
| Bob Eager 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:30:44 UTC, richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
wrote:
quote:
> In article <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-oJSjc3Ndneb8@rikki.tavi.co.uk>,
> Bob Eager <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> No, I had one paragraph about buying, one about selling. I didn't
> intend to catch anyone out.
Fair enough. But you succeeded, anyway!
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-01, 10:55 pm |
| On 1 Jul 2005 20:32:47 GMT, peter@aldie.co.uk (Peter Ilieve) wrote:
quote:
>Do you have a citation for that?
http://www.metric.org.uk/legislation.htm says " Currently, the UK is
the only country in the world whose road sign regulations do not
include metric units as options for distances" and quotes The Traffic
Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (TSRGD).
This is at <http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm>
which includes things like "*Distances may be expressed as "yards",
"yds", "mile", "miles", "m", "YARDS", "YDS", "MILE", "MILES", or "M".
**Distances shall be expressed as "YARDS", "MILE" or "MILES"
using m as an abbreviation for mile would be one reason to avoid
metric measures.
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
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On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:59:19 +0100, Phil Thompson
<phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote:
quote:
>using m as an abbreviation for mile would be one reason to avoid
>metric measures.
We've been caught out by a motorway sign that stated "Services 50m" or
similar when desperate for fuel. I subconsciously took the exit next
to the sign only to realise there were no services and no slip road
back..... Even today those motorway signs throw me for a few seconds.
Just to try and keep this on topic, are motorway phones spaced every
km or mile? ;-)
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
|
| On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:03:59 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
<dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>What on earth is wrong with permitting people to buy and sell using any unit
>they choose?
If I decide to sell you really small cool phone that's only 10 wibbles
tall would you be able to visualise it? How about if I tell you that a
wibble is 1.9 cm? Now create a whole range of measurements and try and
remember in a busy store which is which.
We need standards so businesses can compete in an even manner. Go to
may supermarkets and you'll see signs advertising 1 LB of potatoes etc
with the Kg weight underneath in smaller print. The only reason I can
see for this is that the imperial measurement 'looks' larger. A bit
like £ 1.99 looks a lot less that £ 2.00. I and many people I know who
look for the weight of an item look for the value in Kg or you try to
make a mental convention. 1 LB = 0.5 Kg approx is what I use, I really
should check if that's correct.
I went to school in the 70's/80's and we only learnt metric measures.
Imperial wasn't even mentioned. Now I know that my house is about a
mile from the railway station because I drive a car and can watch the
odometer but I still couldn't tell you how many feet are in a mile
(I'm pretty sure it's not 1000).
quote:
>It makes no sense for "real world" applications. Imperial units grew up over
>centuries such that they had some relationship to the real world. they have
>the world of people as a frame of reference.
My last car really confused me as it was RHD but only had KM on the
dash (no miles at all, a Japanise import). This had the advantage that
you knew how fast you were going (you could relate it to stopping
distances etc) but the big disadvantage that you didn't know if it was
a legal speed!
Lets face it, we need to decide one way or another. Since the only
people who would only know imperial measurements must be UK residents
over 40 (based on my own educational experience which I believe is
very typical and the US doesn't count as their measures are different)
the metric system seems to win all round.
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
| Ivor Jones 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
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"JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
news:ou5cc15reotdfdq
k6h8j217pnkeuurv2at@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:03:59 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
> <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> If I decide to sell you really small cool phone that's only 10 wibbles
> tall would you be able to visualise it? How about if I tell you that a
> wibble is 1.9 cm? Now create a whole range of measurements and try and
> remember in a busy store which is which.
>
> We need standards so businesses can compete in an even manner. Go to
> may supermarkets and you'll see signs advertising 1 LB of potatoes etc
> with the Kg weight underneath in smaller print. The only reason I can
> see for this is that the imperial measurement 'looks' larger. A bit
> like £ 1.99 looks a lot less that £ 2.00. I and many people I know who
> look for the weight of an item look for the value in Kg or you try to
> make a mental convention. 1 LB = 0.5 Kg approx is what I use, I really
> should check if that's correct.
Almost. 1lb (lower case please, also it's kg not Kg) = 454g.
quote:
> I went to school in the 70's/80's and we only learnt metric measures.
> Imperial wasn't even mentioned. Now I know that my house is about a
> mile from the railway station because I drive a car and can watch the
> odometer but I still couldn't tell you how many feet are in a mile
> (I'm pretty sure it's not 1000).
Ah, so that's when the rot set in..! There are 5280 feet to a mile, but
how often do you need to know that..?
quote:
>
> My last car really confused me as it was RHD but only had KM on the
> dash (no miles at all, a Japanise import). This had the advantage that
> you knew how fast you were going (you could relate it to stopping
> distances etc) but the big disadvantage that you didn't know if it was
> a legal speed!
km please not KM.
quote:
> Lets face it, we need to decide one way or another. Since the only
> people who would only know imperial measurements must be UK residents
> over 40 (based on my own educational experience which I believe is
> very typical and the US doesn't count as their measures are different)
> the metric system seems to win all round.
I think you'll find the US does count in a very big way..! And what do you
have against UK residents over 40..? Are we some kind of second class
citizens..? I'm 50 and think almost entirely in imperial measures,
although my brain is still agile enough (!) to convert where necessary,
although I do have to think about it.
My mother, on the other hand, is 78 and I have tried explaining the metric
system to her until I'm blue in the face but she simply can't grasp it.
Why should she be prevented from buying a pound of apples if she wants
to..?
Ivor
| |
| Ivor Jones 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
|
"Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c5209b$0$3084
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
[snip]
quote:
> I wish we'd bite the bullet and change properly to the metric system -
> we did it for money in 1971 so why is it taking so long for everything
> else? Then we can consign the imperial system to the museum of
> historical oddities: who in their right mind invents a system where
> units are not related by factors of 10? Did some of our ancestors have
> 3, 8, 12 or 14 fingers to count on? ;-) There isn't even a simple
> integer relationship between linear and volumetric units: a gallon is
> not a nice round number of cubic inches!
And look what happened to prices when decimal currency came in.
So why do you want to prevent all of us over 40 or so who have difficulty
with the metric system from buying in measures we understand..? I am of an
age where I can still convert in my head reasonably well, but my 78 year
old mother can't grasp metric measurements at all - why should she be
prevented from buying a pound of apples if she wants to..?
And I'll punch *anybody* on the nose that even *hints* at stopping me buy
my beer by the pint..!
Ivor
| |
| Ivor Jones 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
|
"Peter Ilieve" <peter@aldie.co.uk> wrote in message
news:da49lc$5q2f$1@b
asteir.aldie.co.uk...
quote:
> In article < 3iko8pFlq8nnU1@indiv
idual.net>,
> Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I do a lot of hillwalking in Scotland. I have literally hundreds of
> OS maps, mainly 1:25,000 ones. All of them have a handy grid printed
> on them, spaced at 1km (on the ground) intervals. When walking, I've
> thought in km for years, decades even. Why think in miles when I
> can just count the squares on the map and not worry about any
> conversion factors?
Fine, so use what measures *you* want - let me use the measures (imperial)
that *I* want.
I don't care what people use as long as they don't try and force it on me.
Ivor
| |
| Ivor Jones 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
|
"Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3iks2cFllca0U1@
individual.net...
quote:
> "Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:42c538d8$0$4192
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
[snip]
quote:
>
> Because their governments told them to.
Because they're sheep.
quote:
> Tell me, if you go to France and buy mussels, what do they measure them
> in?
I don't care what the French do. I do care what *I* am forced to do.
Ivor
| |
|
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On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 05:48:49 +0100, JC <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote:
quote:
>On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:03:59 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
><dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Lets face it, we need to decide one way or another. Since the only
>people who would only know imperial measurements must be UK residents
>over 40 (based on my own educational experience which I believe is
>very typical and the US doesn't count as their measures are different)
>the metric system seems to win all round.
I'm 30, and although my schooling was biased to the metric system, we were
taught the more common imperial units as well as we'd have to deal with
them in the Real World. I find I can think in both just as easily (and
with distance, I'm much better with miles than kilometres).
--
-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell
Eridani Star System
MailStripper - "The easy spam filter."
http://mailstripper.eridani.co.uk/
| |
| Ivor Jones 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
|
"Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c538d8$2$4192
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
[snip]
quote:
> I've not problem with showing dual units - as a transitionary phase. But
> when we first decided on metrication, we should have been educating
> children solely in metric units so that the imperial system dies out in
> a few generations.
And what of those people who can't think in metric..? Why are you
condemning them to a life of confusion whenever they go shopping..? I can
just about convert from one system to the other, although I think in
imperial. My 78 year old mother on the other hand cannot understand metric
to save her life. Do you think "so what, she'll be dead in a few years"
and forget about her..? She might have been a potential customer of yours.
Think again.
Ivor
| |
| Stephen (Sausagefans.com) 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
| In article <slrndccgti.49h.soruk@zeskia.int.eridani.co.uk>,
soruk@bitbucket.eridani.co.uk says...
quote:
> I'm 30, and although my schooling was biased to the metric system, we were
> taught the more common imperial units as well as we'd have to deal with
> them in the Real World. I find I can think in both just as easily (and
> with distance, I'm much better with miles than kilometres).
*Everyone* who goes through the state system in the UK is taught about
metric and imperial units and conversions. We find it easier to work in
miles rather than km because that is what we use on a day to day basis.
I buy a steak to eat in oz not in grams! In practice we are as much an
imperial country as we ever were!
Of course these days I do not buy a lb of bacon from my butcher, instead
I buy 454g! :-)
--
Obey, conform, consume
Break the cycle
http://sausagefans.com
| |
| Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
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In article < ou5cc15reotdfdqk6h8j
217pnkeuurv2at@4ax.com>, JC
< URL:mailto:nospam@no
spam.comm> wrote:
quote:
>
>
> I went to school in the 70's/80's and we only learnt metric measures.
> Imperial wasn't even mentioned. Now I know that my house is about a
> mile from the railway station because I drive a car and can watch the
> odometer but I still couldn't tell you how many feet are in a mile
> (I'm pretty sure it's not 1000).
So the REAL problem is your lack of education. I'm older than you and use
whichever measurement standard suits the job.
--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk
| |
| do.not.waste.your.time.emailing.me@this.address.it 2005-07-02, 6:55 am |
| On 1 Jul 2005 20:32:47 GMT, peter@aldie.co.uk (Peter Ilieve) wrote:
quote:
>In article < noe8c1lsv0a4mfdcfmct
fh934lb974kr03@4ax.com>,
>Phil Thompson <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>Do you have a citation for that? I'm not doubting you, just curious.
>You seem to know what you're talking about and I know that on
>this subject I don't.
See
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/grou...ivisionhomepag=
e/032478.hcsp
and work your way down all the specified lists of all specified signs
and if you find a dual (metric / non metric) *length* (distance) sign
you will have found one I did not.
--=20
cerberus
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-02, 9:55 am |
| On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 05:27:17 +0100, JC <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote:
quote:
>Just to try and keep this on topic, are motorway phones spaced every
>km or mile? ;-)
the little marker posts telling you where the nearest is are every
100m, on boring trips I use them to calibrate the speedo / odometer.
a government website proclaims "There are emergency phones every 1500m
(about a mile)"
<http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/a...rwaydriving.htm>
In another Govt website the mixed systems absurdity appears :-
"5.54 The marker posts are used here to define the position of the
measurements on the road, often referred to as a "chainage". The
chainage is usually measured from a fixed point at one end of the road
and so it usually increases in one direction of travel and decreases
in the other.
5.55 On motorways, chainages are shown by marker posts placed every
100 metres at the carriageway edge. Each marker post has a number
giving the number of kilometres from a reference point and, underneath
it, the number of 100 metre sections along the current kilometre."
measuring chainage in km is like measuring mileage in km !
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
|
| On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 08:24:02 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
quote:
>Almost. 1lb (lower case please, also it's kg not Kg) = 454g.
>
>km please not KM.
Oops. It worries me that I know the difference between KB and Kb but
forget these.
quote:
>I think you'll find the US does count in a very big way..! And what do you
>have against UK residents over 40..? Are we some kind of second class
>citizens..? I'm 50 and think almost entirely in imperial measures,
>although my brain is still agile enough (!) to convert where necessary,
>although I do have to think about it.
My point was that US measures are different from UK imperial measures
so have to be treated as a separate system. I've nothing at all
against anyone over 40, I will be soon. My point was that on a world
scale, the only people that would know the UK imperial system and not
metric would be UK residents over 40 (approx).
quote:
>My mother, on the other hand, is 78 and I have tried explaining the metric
>system to her until I'm blue in the face but she simply can't grasp it.
>Why should she be prevented from buying a pound of apples if she wants
>to..?
Well I'm over 30 and still can't understand the imperial system, why
should I be prevented from buying a litre of milk (I've just noticed
that what I thought was a litre bottle is actually 1.136 litres so
it's not all bad - but I hope you get the point).
Anyway, nobody's suggesting she couldn't buy a pound of apples, she
can do that now in any shop even though the only legal measure has
been metric for many years.
What does appear to be the case is that it would seem to be illegal
for official distance and speed signs to be shown in metric
measurements. Not even dual signs. This is just bonkers in a country
that is officially metric.
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
|
| On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 08:44:12 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
<me8@privacy.net> wrote:
quote:
>So the REAL problem is your lack of education. I'm older than you and use
>whichever measurement standard suits the job.
Maybe, but if we're supposed to be a metric country why should we need
to learn any other measures unless involved in a specialist trade? I
don't complain about the fact that my builder can't install his own
computer network due to lack of education. The real question is are we
a metric country or not? If we are, then why don't we have metric road
signs. If not then lets be honest about it.
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-03, 9:55 am |
|
"Stephen (Sausagefans.com)" <usenet@sausagefans.com> wrote in message
news:MPG. 1d305774919531d69898
50@news.zen.co.uk...
quote:
> We find it easier to work in
> miles rather than km because that is what we use on a day to day basis.
Err. but that's a circular argument. You use miles, so people get
taught miles, so that's what you use. You could have a symmetrical
argument by saying "we're taught to use tm, so that's what we use,
so that's what people get taught.".
quote:
> I buy a steak to eat in oz not in grams!
Why the exclamation mark ? If you want to buy it in oz,
that's up to you. Are you saying there's a fundamental
reason why "oz" works better than "g" for steaks ? If
there is, I can't see it.
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| Peter Corlett 2005-07-03, 10:55 pm |
| Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
quote:
> So, for quantities of beer, the pint is a good measure, because the
> unit is the same size as a standard measure.
I'm not sure that a single product should define the measurement
system. A pint would be rather a dangerous quantity of fine single
malt. Anyway, it usually comes in a 750ml bottle, so can I declare
that as a "standard measure"?
[...]
quote:
> Can you provide any where the metric measure works better in the
> real world?
568ml is the same volume whichever side of the Pond you are, unlike a
pint.
--
PGP key ID E85DC776 - finger abuse@mooli.org.uk for full key
Please contribute to the beer fund and a tidier house:
http://search.ebay.co.uk/ _W0QQfgtp... />
QQsassZpndc
| |
| Phil McKerracher 2005-07-03, 10:55 pm |
|
"Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c5209b$0$3084
3$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
quote:
> The laws on metrication are an utter mess...
A "Very British Mess", in fact - see
http://www.ukma.org.uk/books/
for a booklet of that name containing many examples.
See also news:misc.metric-system for on-topic discussions!
--
Phil McKerracher
www.mckerracher.org
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 9:55 am |
| "Martin Underwood" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:42c54803$0$3082
9$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
quote:
> "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3iks2cFllca0U1@
individual.net...
>
> And ours should do the same
No they shouldn't.
They should get it into their heads that it is none of their business.
The government is obsessed with micro-managing every aspect of our lives.
quote:
>
> I don't know, but since you are asking the question I presume it's not
> grammes. Do they weigh them in ounces and pounds, then?
No, they sell them in Pints and Quarts, usually measured in a UK dimple
glass (marked with the crown).
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 9:55 am |
| "Richard Tobin" <richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:da3hmt$q5b$2@pc
-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk...
quote:
> In article < 3ikm8vFm1vchU1@indiv
idual.net>,
> Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> They were imposed by governments just as metric is now, in laws such
> as the Assize of Weights and Measures of 1270.
The purpose of Weights and Measures Acts of the past were to rigidly define
the measures that were used by the people in order to avoid merchants
re-defining the units to rip people off. They were not about telling people
that they had to use different measures.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 9:55 am |
|
"Phil Thompson" <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:agjac1db6p4esg7
1obokok78ukca3nme4u@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:58:47 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
> <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> because in this case no conversions are necessary on either piece of
> data.
>
> miles/litre is just as good a benchmark as mpg.
No it isn't.
It has a lower granularity.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 9:55 am |
| "Jet Morgan" <jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:da3ldg$o78$1@ne
ws8.svr.pol.co.uk...
quote:
> Do they now teach metric units exclusively ?
Yes
quote:
> Would a modern 17-year-old
> have any cognition of inches/pints/pounds ?
Well, my 17 year old does.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 9:55 am |
| X-Trace: individual.net bUYsS1dOpq/ MlMU0KEiqCAxEwgDnK3O
mEM8hLcYst/Ye4KV03r
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"JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
news:ou5cc15reotdfdq
k6h8j217pnkeuurv2at@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:03:59 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
> <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> If I decide to sell you really small cool phone that's only 10 wibbles
> tall would you be able to visualise it? How about if I tell you that a
> wibble is 1.9 cm? Now create a whole range of measurements and try and
> remember in a busy store which is which.
Yes, ridiculous isn't it.
So, why is the imposition of the metric system (which somebody invented) a
good idea then?
quote:
> I went to school in the 70's/80's and we only learnt metric measures.
Likewise on dates, but I have a firm grasp of imperial measurements.
quote:
> Imperial wasn't even mentioned. Now I know that my house is about a
> mile from the railway station because I drive a car and can watch the
> odometer but I still couldn't tell you how many feet are in a mile
> (I'm pretty sure it's not 1000).
1760
80 chains of 22 yards each
quote:
> Lets face it, we need to decide one way or another.
Yes, you decide for you, and I'll decide for me.
quote:
> Since the only
> people who would only know imperial measurements must be UK residents
> over 40 (based on my own educational experience which I believe is
> very typical and the US doesn't count as their measures are different)
> the metric system seems to win all round.
Are you happy to lake this to its logical conclusion?
There are, in the UK no monoglot Welsh speakers. As such, by your argument,
the province should move to exclusive use of the English Language
Now, hop off to Cardiff and try to sell that one.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 9:55 am |
|
"JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
news:eb6fc11ov6ia65c
hnk6r8c7i3n8vpepfp5@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 08:24:02 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Oops. It worries me that I know the difference between KB and Kb but
> forget these.
Yes, both are wrong.
it's kB and kb
The "k" must be lower case.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 9:55 am |
| "Jet Morgan" <jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:da8b8g$fk5$2@ne
ws6.svr.pol.co.uk...
quote:
>
> "Stephen (Sausagefans.com)" <usenet@sausagefans.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG. 1d305774919531d69898
50@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> Err. but that's a circular argument. You use miles, so people get
> taught miles, so that's what you use. You could have a symmetrical
> argument by saying "we're taught to use tm, so that's what we use,
> so that's what people get taught.".
>
> Why the exclamation mark ? If you want to buy it in oz,
> that's up to you. Are you saying there's a fundamental
> reason why "oz" works better than "g" for steaks ? If
> there is, I can't see it.
Because it has the right granularity for the application.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 4:56 pm |
| "JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
news:kp7fc15e979h0f0
ctgums36ku1nsv4076q@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 08:44:12 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
> <me8@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
> Maybe, but if we're supposed to be a metric country
Why should we be "a metric country".
Too much government interference.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 4:56 pm |
| "Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:3imuk7Fm3uolU1@
individual.net...
quote:
>
> "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3iks2cFllca0U1@
individual.net...
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Because they're sheep.
Yup
quote:
>
> I don't care what the French do. I do care what *I* am forced to do.
It is merely interesting that the bastion of metrication sells mussels in
pints!
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 4:56 pm |
|
"Peter Corlett" <abuse@dopiaza.cabal.org.uk> wrote in message
news:42c84ad4$0$1048
2$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
quote:
> Dave Mayall <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
> [...]
>
> I'm not sure that a single product should define the measurement
> system. A pint would be rather a dangerous quantity of fine single
> malt. Anyway, it usually comes in a 750ml bottle, so can I declare
> that as a "standard measure"?
I don't want to impose any system.
I'm happy for people to measure things however they choose.
I'd like the same courtesy to me when I'm measuring things.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-04, 4:56 pm |
| "Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3isn75Fn1ct1U1@
individual.net...
quote:
> "JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
> news:ou5cc15reotdfdq
k6h8j217pnkeuurv2at@
4ax.com...
quote:
>
> 1760
>
> 80 chains of 22 yards each
That is, of course the number of Yards to the mile. There are 5280 feet.
| |
| Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk 2005-07-04, 4:56 pm |
| On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:12:26 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
<dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>"JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
> news:kp7fc15e979h0f0
ctgums36ku1nsv4076q@
4ax.com...
>
>Why should we be "a metric country".
>
>Too much government interference.
>
It won't be long before some pillock of an MP or MEP decides that it
is time we started driving on the right instead of the left just so we
will not be different to the rest of Europe .
| |
| Graham J 2005-07-04, 10:55 pm |
| > Yes, both are wrong.
quote:
>
> it's kB and kb
>
> The "k" must be lower case.
Well strictly speaking the standard is now "Ki" for 1024 and "k" for 1000,
and the recommended abbreviations are "B" and "bit". Before that there were
no real standards except de facto ones with varying degrees of support. So
"B" for byte and "b" for bit was widely used not unambiguous. Similarly "K"
and "k" were used interchangeably for 1024 or 1000.
| |
|
| On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:09:09 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
<dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
Sorry, this is so off topic it's painful.
quote:
>So, why is the imposition of the metric system (which somebody invented) a
>good idea then?
Please. Nobody is imposing the metric system on anyone for their own
use, all that has happened is that the standard measuring system for
business and government has switched from imperial to metric. Can we
agree that defining a standard is a good thing? Can we also accept
that there has traditionally only been one standard (imperial) and
that is now (rightly or wrongly) being switched to metric?
Now the decision to switch from imperial to metric has been made,
before, it would appear, either of us was born. It's already illegal
to use imperial measure for loose vegetables etc and has been for many
years. I don't however think you have any problem buying a pound of
potatoes - you are free to use imperial or any other system you like
and any sensible business will support this if their customers demand
it, as long as the metric system is used as the final billed price and
measure.
The problem is that this switch hasn't been made cleanly and there are
still areas where the change isn't complete. If we were fully imperial
or fully metric it wouldn't be an issue, but while things are in a
state of flux it can only mean confusion.
quote:
>Likewise on dates, but I have a firm grasp of imperial measurements.
That's great but millions in this country (and almost all tourists)
have only a vague clue about imperial measures (and even if they think
they know them it may be the US imperial system which of course is a
different beast).
quote:
>1760
Thank you. I really wouldn't have known that without Googling.
quote:
>80 chains of 22 yards each
I've definitely never heard of the chain before.
http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/units/length.htm seems to have
details.
quote:
>Yes, you decide for you, and I'll decide for me.
That's fine for our own use. We've been over that. Day to day life and
business requires standards, after all, that would appear to be the
reason we don't (yet) have speed signs in kilometres. I await the
first "1600 chain" zone outside the local school or "1108800 hand"
speed signs with interest if we were to follow that logic.
quote:
>
>Are you happy to lake this to its logical conclusion?
Not sure I follow. I'm trying to say by adopting the metric system you
inconvenience the least number of people. Obviously during any change
there will be people that may need assistance but the mishmash we have
now only serves to confuse everyone permanently.
quote:
>There are, in the UK no monoglot Welsh speakers. As such, by your argument,
>the province should move to exclusive use of the English Language
No this doesn't follow. The primary language in England and Scotland
is English - therefore we have English signs. In fact there are quite
a few signs around here in French and German for the aid of tourists -
just as the local supermarket also additionally displays imperial
weights for people that need or like them and some shops also accept
and display prices in euros.
Wales however (an I'm not too familiar with the situation and don't
want to get in to welsh politics) appears to have adopted two legal
languages and has laws stating that all signs must be in both with
equal prominence. (I wish they'd do the same for multiple weights in
supermarkets where it's always the larger value per £ that's written
most prominently) This makes sense where there is a possibility of
confusion due the use of multiple languages by large percentages of
the population or where politicians want to protect a potentially
threatened language. The same thing happens in many (especially
african) countries.
If you feel that this is the case for the imperial system then maybe
you should campaign for multiple signing as that would be a lot more
logical than forcing everyone to use only the minority imperial system
as their legal measure.
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
| Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk 2005-07-05, 4:55 pm |
| On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 05:43:46 +0100, JC <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote:
quote:
>Please. Nobody is imposing the metric system on anyone for their own
>use, all that has happened is that the standard measuring system for
>business and government has switched from imperial to metric.
Don't be stupid the metric system is being imposed on ALL of us for
our OWN use.
Has an example and I have come upon this one quite a lot in the last
year or so . Joe blogs has say a filing cabinet that is say 2 foot
square which fits nice and snug in an alcove or whatever in his house
and there comes a time when it needs replacing can he get a
replacement of the SAME size can he hell . Due to this country
following the rest of flaming Europe like sheep he can only get one
that is larger or smaller by an inch or two sorry flaming centimeters
than the one being replaced so either it will fit and leave a gap or
wont fit at all .
quote:
>Can we
>agree that defining a standard is a good thing? Can we also accept
>that there has traditionally only been one standard (imperial) and
>that is now (rightly or wrongly) being switched to metric?
Where the British people asked if they wanted to change no where they
hell like when we where asked about membership of the common market
oh yes we got to vote on it the problem was the count of the vote was
fiddled so the government got its own way in the end .
You like the metric system then go to bloody Europe and leave the rest
of us in piece .
| |
| David Wilson Clarke 2005-07-05, 4:55 pm |
| Graham J wrote:
quote:
>
> Well strictly speaking the standard is now "Ki" for 1024 and "k" for 1000,
> and the recommended abbreviations are "B" and "bit". Before that there
> were
> no real standards except de facto ones with varying degrees of support.
> So
> "B" for byte and "b" for bit was widely used not unambiguous. Similarly
> "K" and "k" were used interchangeably for 1024 or 1000.
Do you have a reference for this? I'm interested in what happens to Meg &
Gig.
--
Dave Clarke
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
|
quote:
"Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ismnoFml9jsU1@
individual.net...[vbcol=darkred]
> No it isn't.
>
> It has a lower granularity.
But you can still use decimal points, e.g. 9.541 miles per litre.
(or you can have chains/litre, rods/litre, inches/litre)
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
| > > Imperial wasn't even mentioned. Now I know that my house is about a
quote:
"Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> responded[vbcol=dark
red]
> 1760
Incorrect. It is 5280.
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
| > Seeing the original post was about Railway Stations - - just to say that
I wish to complain. Somebody has called it a RAILWAY station !
quote:
> I am a railway volunteer and we still measure distances on the track in
> chains.
Aren't chains used traditionally just to measure the radii of curves, not
linear track lengths ?
Richard [in PE12]
quote:
> --
> Dave C
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
|
quote:
"Dave Mayall" <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3isnbnFmse3dU1@
individual.net...
[vbcol=darkred]
> Because it has the right granularity for the application.
Don't understand. You could use grams, decagrams, hectograms
or whatever. You could also use fractions of an ounce, grams
in the hundreds or any other such.
Are you saying that, for a given application, you want the
measurement system in use to be (a) generally in integers,
and (b) no more than say 2 digits, at the expense of providing
interchangeability with other aspects of measuring ?
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
|
<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:h50jc1dnamp18lb
ok6v4ita9hhseucv0fe@
4ax.com...
quote:
> It won't be long before some pillock of an MP or MEP decides that it
> is time we started driving on the right instead of the left just so we
> will not be different to the rest of Europe .
I hope so, then we won't be dazzled by continental drivers who
won't bend their beams correctly. Is it true that one country
(forget which) changed left->right, but changed different classes
of vehicle at different times.
Anyway, won't same-sideness make it easier to export/import cars
across the EU ?
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| Jet Morgan 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
| <Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ufukc1to6uhv88u
h5bcnao0eaoigpq8mnf@
4ax.com...
quote:
> Don't be stupid the metric system is being imposed on ALL of us for
> our OWN use.
> Has an example and I have come upon this one quite a lot in the last
> year or so . Joe blogs has say a filing cabinet that is say 2 foot
> square which fits nice and snug in an alcove or whatever in his house
> and there comes a time when it needs replacing can he get a
Is this the imperial version of "how to punctuate sentences properly" ?
If so, I'll stay with the metric version, thank you.
Richard [in PE12]
| |
| dexter@blueyonder.co.uk 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
| On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:56:04 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
<jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>Anyway, won't same-sideness make it easier to export/import cars
>across the EU ?
It does not matter about transporting what ever across the EU it is
what we British citizens have been brought up to doing and using like
driving on the left and measuring in miles yards feet and inches
gallons and pints and 12 pence in one shilling and twenty shilling in
one pound etc etc sod all the foreign rubbish .
Incidentally do you happen to know if the pompous bastard who signed
us into the bloody EU in the first place is still alive or not,
haven't seen or heard of him for quite some time now .
| |
| Phil Thompson 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
| On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:56:04 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
<jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
>Is it true that one country
>(forget which) changed left->right, but changed different classes
>of vehicle at different times.
so all the HGVs had head-ons with cars the following morning ? sounds
unlikely :-)
Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !
| |
| Bob Eager 2005-07-05, 10:55 pm |
| On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:50:41 UTC, "Jet Morgan"
<jm@paran---andr---.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
> <Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ufukc1to6uhv88u
h5bcnao0eaoigpq8mnf@
4ax.com...
>
> Is this the imperial version of "how to punctuate sentences properly" ?
>
> If so, I'll stay with the metric version, thank you.
Dexter uses the imperial version of lots of words, too...for example,
'as'.
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
| |
|
| On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:53:54 +0100, dexter@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
quote:
>Incidentally do you happen to know if the pompous bastard who signed
>us into the bloody EU in the first place is still alive or not,
>haven't seen or heard of him for quite some time now .
That would have been the British people in 1975 wouldn't it?
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
|
| On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:15:30 +0100, Dave C <enlli@despammed.com>
wrote:
quote:
>Seeing the original post was about Railway Stations - - just to say that
>I am a railway volunteer and we still measure distances on the track in
>chains.
Fair enough, this is actually what I'm trying to say. The height of a
horse is also usually referred to in hands and we use 19" rack mounts
in our data centre. The point is that the _official_ standard should
be metric and metric figures should be available (in addition to any
others) where the public are involved.
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
|
| On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:31:33 +0100, Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
quote:
>Don't be stupid the metric system is being imposed on ALL of us for
>our OWN use.
Only in the same way that the imperial system was "imposed" upon us -
in fact it would appear to a far lesser extent as it's now common for
dual signing.
quote:
>Has an example and I have come upon this one quite a lot in the last
>year or so . Joe blogs has say a filing cabinet that is say 2 foot
>square which fits nice and snug in an alcove or whatever in his house
>and there comes a time when it needs replacing can he get a
>replacement of the SAME size can he hell . Due to this country
>following the rest of flaming Europe like sheep he can only get one
This has NOTHING to do with the metric system. Anyone is free to make
cabinets of whatever size they like, they can even label them as being
2 foot square as long as they show the metric equivalent. I can think
of two reasons for the problem you describe, shops selling cheap
imports which would be the same size anyway whatever measurement we
choose to display or (more likely I suspect) most new houses are now
built to metric measures, hence a metric sized cabinet is the more
appropriate choice. QED.
quote:
>that is larger or smaller by an inch or two sorry flaming centimeters
>than the one being replaced so either it will fit and leave a gap or
>wont fit at all .
If there is such a demand for these cabinets why don't you make them?
Your quite free to do so, the physical size has NOTHING to do with the
measuring standard (as long as it is accurate and consistent). You
could even use an imperial ruler for your initial measures.
quote:
>You like the metric system then go to bloody Europe and leave the rest
>of us in piece .
I live in the UK, we currently hold the presidency of the european
union. That good enough? ;-)
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
|
| On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:26:15 +0100, JC <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote:
quote:
>Your quite free to do so, the physical size has NOTHING to do with the
You're.... aggh sorry.
Rgds
Jonathan
| |
| Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) 2005-07-06, 9:55 am |
| In article < 8gpmc19s669q1rni1fdp
779ugdhrsrd4df@4ax.com>, JC
< URL:mailto:nospam@no
spam.comm> wrote:
quote:
>
>
> That would have been the British people in 1975 wouldn't it?
No, we voted for a common market, NOT to be absorbed into the United
Socialist States of Europe.
--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk
| |
| Martin Underwood 2005-07-06, 9:55 am |
| "JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
news:fkpmc1lqe8mon4g
gj6mu3o1eoo5icru30c@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:15:30 +0100, Dave C <enlli@despammed.com>
> wrote:
>
Really? I can imagine that you may use the original survey of the line that
was done in miles and chains, but if you were specifying the distance of
some new feature on the track, would you measure that in m+c as well, rather
than in metres? I hadn't realised m+c were still officially used in the
railway industry.
I wonder why the chain was defined as 22 yards rather than 20 or 25 yards? I
get the distinct feeling that ease of calculation (in base 10) was not a
pre-requisite for the imperial system :-(
I can understand sub-dividing inches into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc because
you are successively halving the distance between two other points, so I
could understand if the imperial system used factors that were powers of 2 -
but that doesn't explain 12 (pennies/shilling, inches/foot), 14
(pounds/stone), 6 (feet/fathom), 22 (yards/chain). And how come a
hundredweight is 112 pounds? Was "hundred" being used to mean "approximately
a hundred" or was there originally a slightly larger pound of which there
were exactly 100 of those pounds in a hundredweight?
[vbcol=darkred]
> Fair enough, this is actually what I'm trying to say. The height of a
> horse is also usually referred to in hands and we use 19" rack mounts
> in our data centre. The point is that the _official_ standard should
> be metric and metric figures should be available (in addition to any
> others) where the public are involved.
I agree. We've got the Americans to "thank" for imperial standards like 19"
rack mounts and 3 1/2" diskettes in the computer industry; sadly these will
probably be with us for a long time to come. The weird thing about diskettes
is that the two holes are exactly 8 cm apart, which is the same spacing as
the rings in an A4 4-hole ring-binder: I've seen people file diskettes by
clipping them into a ring-binder!
While we're on the subject of numerical oddities, why is it that a lot of
car rev counters are calibrated as 10, 20, 30 x 100 revs/min rather than 1,
2, 3 x 1000 revs/min? Not only does the former give you two gauges which
have very similar numbers, allowing bozos to confuse the rev counter with
the speedometer, but it also flies in the face of normal engineering policy
of expressing very large or very small numbers as powers of 1000 - ie a
number in the range 1-999 multiplied by 10^-6, 10^-3, 1, 1000, 1000000 etc.
As a matter of interest, are horses in Europe measured in hands? If so, they
presumably think of the hand as a really obscure unit measuring 10.16 cm ;-)
Maybe a "European hand" has been rounded down to 10 cm.
It's interesting that there are some aspects of life in Britain that have
used metric units for a long time: we measure film width in mm (but length
in feet!); the OS grid measures in km; the capacity of a car engine is
measured in cc or litres.
| |
| Dave Mayall 2005-07-06, 9:55 am |
| "JC" <nospam@nospam.comm> wrote in message
news:vsvjc1hua0797ab
jn6vvio2e21401migpo@
4ax.com...
quote:
> On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:09:09 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
> <dave@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
quote:
> Please. Nobody is imposing the metric system on anyone for their own
> use, all that has happened is that the standard measuring system for
> business and government has switched from imperial to metric.
So, they are imposing the metric system on me in my dealings with other
people.
Why, if both the greengrocer and I are happy to trade in pounds and ounces,
do they have to interfere?
quote:
> Can we
> agree that defining a standard is a good thing?
Standards should be defined, such that a pound or kilogram is the same at
all times, yes.
quote:
> Can we also accept
> that there has traditionally only been one standard (imperial) and
> that is now (rightly or wrongly) being switched to metric?
No. Traditionally there have been many standards.
quote:
>
> Thank you. I really wouldn't have known that without Googling.
>
>
> I've definitely nev | | |